The Importance of Transparency, Cooperation & Effort as Town

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The Importance of Transparency, Cooperation & Effort as Town

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:23 am

Post by wgeurts »

I've noticed a worrying trend in the current site's meta during the last year or so. In this post I'll outline exactly what's wrong and what we should be aiming for instead, providing means of doing so.

The Importance of Transparency, Cooperation & Effort as Town

Imagine you're in a game, you're trying to figure out who's aligned with what faction and you come across the following player: somebody who has a sporadic voting pattern (or the opposite: a really stiff pattern), all reads are explained with buzzwords along the lines of "gut", "x-vibes", "LAMIST", "WIFOM" or "this post is scummy/townie". You ask them to explain themselves, and they quote a few posts if lucky and simply state that these posts are "awful"/"good". Not entirely happy with this explanation you probe further, but they refuse to work along with you, stating they "don't read walls" or use "ISO's". For that matter, they largely don't provide input on majority of posts. Alas, this kind of play is common to varying degrees right now, and worse more: it's being tolerated. This isn't right: the best play as town is to work as a collective whole and provide as much input as you can. People should not be allowed to get away with unexplained reads, never should a post containing theory go by without comment, and in almost every scenario people should be sharing their thoughts! Yet this is not happening!

Transparency

Players should be a lot more transparent with their thoughts than they are now, and transparency should become something expected from everyone. Mafia is a game built upon information, and ways of handling that information. The second you withhold information, you're taking away a piece of the full-picture and are thus negatively impacting the town. Before I go any further, I wish to state that transparency is not the same as full-disclosure: common sense is required (so don't claim abilities if there's no benefit in doing so etc.). Every read a player states in the game, should have an explanation paired to it. This seems obvious, but it's not happening. If you think somebody is aligned with the town or with some other faction you have to go ahead and provide examples of evidence, and then go ahead and explain why that evidence shows they're likelier to be of a certain alignment.

Each read should be structured like this to some extent:
Read:

-Evidence A (Post x): "If they are scum doing this would be odd as ..., however as town it makes sense because ..."
-Evidence B (Post x): "There seems to be a hint of x emotion in this post, as town considering the earlier events it makes sense because .... As scum this would probably be faked as ..., and thus this post seems indicative of ..."

And so on.

I mean, you don't have to format them exactly like this. The general gist is that every point should have evidence, and an explanation. Simply stating a post is scummy or townie is not enough! Anyone can make these statements, including scum. If this kind of play is tolerated the town is effectively handicapping themselves. It's when points have to be justified that you make scum's life significantly harder: they no longer can get away with coasting and have to actively forge reasons. The chances scum will slip-up (by contradicting themselves, etc.) is significantly higher like this. As town, you have no excuse not to be explaining yourself. Only in select situations is keeping your thoughts to yourself viable: such as with gambits which would be blown if information is handed out prior to execution. Even so, the second it's no longer an issue to explain the gambit you should do so, whilst also providing your findings.

There's no excuse to not do so.

Cooperation

Players are playing too much as individuals right now, and this is harming the quality of town play (and scum play as they don't need to play as well to win). Keeping in mind every player in a game should be explaining every point they raise, cooperation becomes key. The ideal town would be one where each point raised is discussed, and people change their views depending on conclusions drawn. This process repeats itself, and you end up with reads that are justifiable over the board if all the players are open-minded. Player's reads may not always align however, as behaviour can be interpreted in different ways and we are not dealing with objective evidence. Now, discussing everything raised is simply not possible due to the sheer amount of work and time it requires. However that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to achieve this ideal. If you are town you should actively be investing effort into commenting on as many points raised by others as possible, stating why you agree or disagree and raising your own evidence to support your opinion. If you are town, but are rarely actually discussing other people's reads and their strengths you are playing this game wrongly. The more discussion and reflection is going on the likelier quality reads will be formed. It also places a huge burden on scum, who will now have to actively lie and forge constantly.

The fact we removed "Best town team" as a scummy shows something is wrong. The town is a team, we should start being team-players. Which brings me to my final issue...

Effort

Many people simply don't do the above as they can't be assed to do so. This is horrific! The amount of times I've seen someone state they don't read walls, won't go through ISO's, or won't look at someone else's posts is insane. And nobody says something about it! When you sign up for a game you have signed up knowing you should be investing time and effort, not doing so is technically playing against your win-condition and should as such not be tolerated at all. You should always be reading every posts, not just reading actually, but analysing! Multiple times preferably! If you are too lazy to do this replace out, you're a hindrance to the game.

There is also no justification for "gut" reads. A gut read is simply a read for which you have no explanation yet, and until you provide one it is worth literally nothing. It is way to easy to fake gut reads as scum, and as town you should be trying to find out why you think someone is aligned with whatever.

It's also not acceptable for you to tell someone to go and look at someone's posts for themselves. It's not them making a case for something, it's you, and as such you hold the burden of evidence.

How do we combat this?

There are a number of ways we can shift the meta to improve play globally. As players we can start being less tolerant of those not pulling their weight, actively pressuring them and lynching them if need be. Either they'll get the message eventually or they'll get so fed up they'll quit playing mafia. Good. We don't want people in games who don't actually play.

As moderators of games we need be stricter in upholding the rule of "don't play against your win-condition", penalising players somehow when they don't actually play the game properly. This needs to be carefully upheld however, lurking is a viable strategy in certain situations and is not the same as investing no effort.
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Post Post #2 (isolation #1) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:34 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 1, Nahdia wrote:sorry i dont read walls so idk what that said can some summarize it for me.
VOTE: Nahdia
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Post Post #4 (isolation #2) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:40 am

Post by wgeurts »

I know a fair amount agree with you there, though that doesn't mean you should be only using gut-reads. It also shouldn't be an excuse to not participate.
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Post Post #7 (isolation #3) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:09 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 5, Desully wrote:Whether this behavior can be surpressed or not depends on the number of responsible players in a particular game.
Many player's want to seriously play the game, I reckon there's more responsible players than others around.
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Post Post #9 (isolation #4) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:16 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 6, Lycanfire wrote:-snip-
The essence of my post wasn't just about gut reads. Gut-reads are tolerable as long as you do back them up with something else, never use them alone as an explanation. I think you and I agree on that here to varying degrees.

It's good to see I'm not the only noting the trend. Some strong players are playing as individuals and try to carry the town themselves, whilst it shouldn't be a solo effort in the first place. Strong town players are in my eyes not only the ones who catch scum, but those that can actually get the town together and lead them through their reasoning until others follow. This isn't a town player who dictates what happens. Reads honestly should always be justified with only a very small amount of exceptions. If you're a vanilla townie you basically don't have any exception to rely on.

The current spam trend also isn't great. How hard is it honestly to compile your thoughts into one post instead of posting one liners all over the place? It simply buries information.
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Post Post #11 (isolation #5) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:04 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 10, Creature wrote:What matters is playing to have fun. By saying "town must play like this. Period", you're taking away someone's fun. And it's not a matter of "if you don't want to play like this, you should quit mafia"

I agree that staying the whole game just saying "X is town/scum" or "this post is town/scum" is bad, but so is forcing every player to explain everything to the last detail. Don't let someone feed you, try to comprehend them.
Frankly, they're ruining the majority's fun. I'm willing to wager that the significant majority of the people playing mafia on this site came here from other sites to play on a more competitive level. MafiaScum is known for its competitive
somewhat elitist
nature. If you're going to play a game you should actually play the game to the best of your ability. If we dictated our meta on what was most fun mafia would be awful. If all you get fun out of is simply doing nothing in a game, there are plenty of other places to do that.

I shouldn't have to be putting in extra work to damage control a useless player, the fault is theirs so they either need to man up or get out.
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Post Post #12 (isolation #6) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:06 am

Post by wgeurts »

Look at EpicMafia: that is what a site looks like where fun is the priority.
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Post Post #14 (isolation #7) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:14 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 13, Nahdia wrote:objection, epicmafia isn't fun. also people constantly complain about the site meta there too.
This is the point exactly. It at one point was actually a decent place to play mafia, if you just devolve it reaches a point where you just make the place rancid.
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Post Post #16 (isolation #8) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:17 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 15, Creature wrote:
In post 11, wgeurts wrote:Frankly, they're ruining the majority's fun.
I don't see many players having trouble with them, so it's probably not majority.
On the contrary, people are constantly getting frustrated with town who aren't doing anything. Most games don't pass without complaints about the engagement of the playerbase, or town players making awful moves simply because some can't be bothered to invest effort.
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Post Post #17 (isolation #9) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:20 am

Post by wgeurts »

It is also in the site-rules that you may not play against your win-condition. I've made the case why doing the above is doing so. If you don't want to invest effort don't play here.

I know this makes me sound like a jerk, but it is so. The fact we have people arguing why we shouldn't listen to other's theorising about best play shows the site meta is heading downwards.
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Post Post #19 (isolation #10) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:31 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 18, Infinity 324 wrote:You're preaching so only the choir can hear.
I've mentioned a few times in games during rants that I'd write a huge post on why people are playing awfully and need to change, now I have and I can simply refer to it whenever I wish.
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Post Post #21 (isolation #11) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:38 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 20, Nahdia wrote:
In post 17, wgeurts wrote:It is also in the site-rules that you may not play against your win-condition. I've made the case why doing the above is doing so.
Intent, my man.
It states play to win, not intentionally malicious behaviour.
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Post Post #23 (isolation #12) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:47 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 22, Nahdia wrote:Defining "play to win" as anything other than "not actively trying to avoid winning" is a very, very dangerous road.
Play to win means try to play to win.
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Post Post #27 (isolation #13) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:56 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 26, Infinity 324 wrote:Like, you could make an argument that doing
that
is playing against wincon.
On a per-game basis yes. Long-term no. If the town can function better minus that player then go ahead.
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Post Post #29 (isolation #14) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:59 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 28, Creature wrote:I disagree on punishing players for not making huge walls of texts.
They don't have to make huge walls of text, they should however always provide evidence and explanation for anything they state. As well as participate in discussion and analysis.

That's literally basic mafia play and argumentation, and somehow it's being forgotten.

If you don't want to do this why are you even playing mafia as this is literally what it's based off?
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Post Post #31 (isolation #15) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:18 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 30, Creature wrote:
Gut scum reads


They're usually not solid at all and it's usually a scumread in development.

Sometimes there's something that makes me think someone is scum but I can't explain it with words. If I were forced to explain, I would probably explain with something that's not really true and anyone (including scum) may shut it down with an easy counterargument, and then my read is knocked back to null and it'll be ignored.

Otherwise, if I don't explain, my gut scum read will have to find another way to town up. There, now either I'll change my mind and actually townread them or I'll solidify my scumread on them and have a real case on them.
That's fine, as long as you don't leave it at a gut-read all game long and still participate in discussion regarding other's content and thoughts.

If you can't rationally explain a read you shouldn't pusure it IMO though, that's but a subjective sidenote to my post though.
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Post Post #35 (isolation #16) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:31 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 33, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:This will only divide the site and make the problem worst.
If those that aren't actually bothered to invest effort into a game are thus excluded the site would be better as a whole. You don't have to shit-post and sit around to have fun in mafia. Trying to play the game (not even to your best extent) and fun aren't mutually exclusive. Those that don't invest effort drag all the other players in a game down for their own enjoyment, that's wrong.
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Post Post #36 (isolation #17) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:33 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 34, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:All you're doing is encouraging vanilla play. Players should only be punished for abusive behavior and/or constantly prod-dodging.
I completely disagree, playing decently and enjoyment are not mutually exclusive. Most highly regarded games are those wherein players did well and were enjoyable.
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Post Post #39 (isolation #18) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:38 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 37, Postie wrote:This is all great in theory but I've found that the less I'm able to justify a scumread the more likely it is that that person is scum. And sometimes I just
know
that the kind of gutread I have on a player is one that is very very likely to be correct, because of past experience with gutreads that have felt similar, to the point where I've recently started assigning different colours to different kinds of gutreads to help me tell them apart so I know which gutreads I can trust and which I need to be more careful about. "This player is scum because my gut has them as purple" might not mean anything to anyone else, but I'm never going to not push a lynch on that person when my purple gutreads have hit scum 100% of the time.
You can push a lynch, just don't expect many to follow if they're unaware of your meta. My post is
not
about gut-reads being bad, as that's just one my opinion, that's but something minor I state in it.
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Post Post #41 (isolation #19) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:41 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 38, Nahdia wrote:
In post 35, wgeurts wrote:If those that aren't actually bothered to invest effort into a game are thus excluded the site would be better as a whole.
Depends where you set the bar. You may not like the more casual players, but there would be a lot fewer games going on without them.
You have casual players that will actually take the effort to read the game and put some thought into it and discuss somewhat, they're providing input and thus contributing to the town (maybe not as much as others but they still contribute). Then you have those that will rarely provide input on anything, and refuse to explain themselves. If you're really lucky they'll also not properly be reading the game.

It's the difference between someone playing chess without thinking 4 moves ahead each go but still putting some thought in, and someone who simply doesn't care about winning and will just move whatever anywhere without regard for anything. One's still playing to win to some extent and isn't being a hindrance to the game.
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Post Post #43 (isolation #20) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:44 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 40, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 35, wgeurts wrote:
In post 33, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:This will only divide the site and make the problem worst.
If those that aren't actually bothered to invest effort into a game are thus excluded the site would be better as a whole. You don't have to shit-post and sit around to have fun in mafia. Trying to play the game (not even to your best extent) and fun aren't mutually exclusive. Those that don't invest effort drag all the other players in a game down for their own enjoyment, that's wrong.
It isn't even about having fun, it's about happiness. We play this game because it allows us to experience emotions that are closely related to the main factors of happiness. Taking that away from anyone is wrong but the reality of the situation is that there isn't a solution to the problem other than people making blacklists.
Should we allow trolls to troll because they become happy when they do that? No.
There is a solution, which requires people to stop tolerating people not actually playing the game.
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Post Post #45 (isolation #21) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:45 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 42, Nahdia wrote:
In post 41, wgeurts wrote:Then you have those that will rarely provide input on anything, and refuse to explain themselves. If you're really lucky they'll also not properly be reading the game.
Yeah I haven't seen much of this at all, so I guess we're talking about different things.
I'm addressing all players who rarely participate in group discussion and analysis, those that won't actually justify their reads, those that won't actually put effort into a game.
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Post Post #46 (isolation #22) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:45 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 44, Creature wrote:idk, many players that can't explain their reads think they're doing it right and have faith they'll make town follow them.
And these are the players town should not be following as it's just as easy for them to fake it as scum.
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Post Post #48 (isolation #23) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:48 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 47, Creature wrote:Well, atleast they're actually trying to win, just not very hard.
The line is drawn when your lack of contribution is detrimental to the town or easily fakeable by scum. These people aren't actually contributing anything.
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Post Post #52 (isolation #24) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:52 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 50, Creature wrote:I agree that if a player doesn't seem to care about their townplay but seems to work hard on being scum, I wouldn't mind lynching them. Though, if I notice it's some player that usually struggles to explain things, I won't lynch them for that.
Somebody struggling to explain things is somebody trying to contribute, they're trying to improve and will do so over time. That's fine.
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Post Post #53 (isolation #25) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:55 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 51, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 43, wgeurts wrote:
In post 40, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 35, wgeurts wrote:
In post 33, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:This will only divide the site and make the problem worst.
If those that aren't actually bothered to invest effort into a game are thus excluded the site would be better as a whole. You don't have to shit-post and sit around to have fun in mafia. Trying to play the game (not even to your best extent) and fun aren't mutually exclusive. Those that don't invest effort drag all the other players in a game down for their own enjoyment, that's wrong.
It isn't even about having fun, it's about happiness. We play this game because it allows us to experience emotions that are closely related to the main factors of happiness. Taking that away from anyone is wrong but the reality of the situation is that there isn't a solution to the problem other than people making blacklists.
Should we allow trolls to troll because they become happy when they do that? No.
There is a solution, which requires people to stop tolerating people not actually playing the game.
Excessive trolling falls under abusive behavior and that usually gets taken care of by whoever is modding the game. The problem is mafia isn't as black and white as you think it is. There isn't a way playing that guarantees a 90-100% success rate. There isn't a correct way to play and that's what makes mafia, well mafia. The psychology of it all. Trying to understand personalities to determine if someone is being genuine or not. Trying to do that doesn't become worth the effort in my opinion if everyone is forced to play the same.
Mafia remains a game of rational and psychology, everything is evidence and evidence requires interpretation that requires explanation. If you're not trying to form explainable reads and aid the town in reaching good reads you're not playing as you should. If you're not doing this you're basically not playing the game. How you gather your evidence is irrelevant to my points about town working as a group, and transparency.

There may not be a way to win 90-100% of the time but you most certainly can increase your odds.
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Post Post #56 (isolation #26) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:00 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 54, Creature wrote:I still have the right to explicitly refuse to explain my entire readslist all in the same time, right?
Of course, you're hindering the town however whilst doing so and thus also technically playing against the spirit of the game. Are you really arguing that laziness should be tolerated in games?
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Post Post #57 (isolation #27) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:01 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 55, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:What I'm trying to say is that it's all subjective. Someone who is blatantly playing anti-town or the way you have been describing could really believe they're working with the town and being transparent.
They're not though, but people putting effort in eventually learn how to play the game in the best manner. They want to improve.
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Post Post #61 (isolation #28) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:10 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 58, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 57, wgeurts wrote:
In post 55, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:What I'm trying to say is that it's all subjective. Someone who is blatantly playing anti-town or the way you have been describing could really believe they're working with the town and being transparent.
They're not though, but people putting effort in eventually learn how to play the game in the best manner. They want to improve.
If you somehow have statistics to back this up then I would probably come around.
People who put effort into trying to improve tend to improve. That's just general life. If I put effort into learning an instrument I tend to improve.
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Post Post #62 (isolation #29) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:11 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 59, Postie wrote:
In post 56, wgeurts wrote:
In post 54, Creature wrote:I still have the right to explicitly refuse to explain my entire readslist all in the same time, right?
Of course, you're hindering the town however whilst doing so and thus also technically playing against the spirit of the game. Are you really arguing that laziness should be tolerated in games?
Not wanting to explain all of your reads isn't always down to laziness; it can be done for strategic reasons too.
Alright I'm willing to debate this here. Provide these strategic reasons, as there are very very few that actually hold up under scrutiny.
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Post Post #63 (isolation #30) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:12 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 60, Creature wrote:or because the reads (atleast the weaker ones) will usually be explained just in a very terrible form.
Terribly explained reads are better than non-explained reads, if they were amazingly explained they wouldn't be weak reads: that's the nature of weak reads.
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Post Post #65 (isolation #31) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:17 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 64, Creature wrote:and then players complain they still don't understand me at all and that I should re-explain,
and that's really boring.


Also, one strategy is: You're seeing a scumtell from someone (talking about meta), but you're not sure if that's enough. If you share, this tell will become invalid. If you don't share, you may way it a while until you feel you should call the player for it (and then you lynch scum).
That's where the issue lies: effort. Reading posts and analysing them isn't always fun, but it is a crucial part of the game. Why play the game if you don't enjoy playing it?

Give an example of such a scum-tell, as if it's strong enough to build a read on then it's already in-thread and verifiable. If a tell isn't valid yet then it's not a good basis for a read.
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Post Post #70 (isolation #32) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:28 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 66, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 61, wgeurts wrote:
In post 58, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 57, wgeurts wrote:
In post 55, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:What I'm trying to say is that it's all subjective. Someone who is blatantly playing anti-town or the way you have been describing could really believe they're working with the town and being transparent.
They're not though, but people putting effort in eventually learn how to play the game in the best manner. They want to improve.
If you somehow have statistics to back this up then I would probably come around.
People who put effort into trying to improve tend to improve. That's just general life. If I put effort into learning an instrument I tend to improve.
Yes but wouldn't it better to improve by learning how to read anti-town play?
If somebody in a football team is awful at kicking the ball, is it best for the team to damage-control or for that guy to invest some effort into improving? The latter. The game doesn't revolve around that player, if you are being a detriment you are responsible for that fact and solely you should be responsible. I've learned how to read anti-town play, anti-town doesn't equal scum. Still the better situation would be them actually learning how to play.
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Post Post #71 (isolation #33) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:29 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 67, Creature wrote:Meta tells. Sometimes you know how to detect whether someone is scum but you don't want to reveal it yet so that someone doesn't avoid that scumtell.
In which case you've got a read in development and not yet an actual read, if you're confident enough in the meta similarities to let it influence your read you should be voicing it.
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Post Post #72 (isolation #34) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:31 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 68, Postie wrote:
In post 62, wgeurts wrote:Alright I'm willing to debate this here. Provide these strategic reasons, as there are very very few that actually hold up under scrutiny.
If you're pushing a single scumread and won't shut up about it and it's on scum then scum can't nightkill you without making themselves look like scum.
Nightkill analysis has shown to be one of the weakest forms of information, this could just as easily be used on someone tunneling town to mislead the town. Had that town player more reads explained their contribution would have been more significant.
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Post Post #73 (isolation #35) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:32 am

Post by wgeurts »

Also, pushing one scum-read isn't mutually exclusive with explaining your others.
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Post Post #75 (isolation #36) » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:48 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 74, Postie wrote:
In post 72, wgeurts wrote:Nightkill analysis has shown to be one of the weakest forms of information, this could just as easily be used on someone tunneling town to mislead the town.
eliminating actual threats > creating WIFOM to push a mislynch on a random towny that's being deathtunneled anyway
Yet when town started using it too much the meta shifts to the latter. It also doesn't disregard the fact you can be as much of a threat to scum explaining everything than with just 1.
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Post Post #86 (isolation #37) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:56 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 77, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 70, wgeurts wrote:
In post 66, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 61, wgeurts wrote:
In post 58, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
In post 57, wgeurts wrote:
In post 55, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:What I'm trying to say is that it's all subjective. Someone who is blatantly playing anti-town or the way you have been describing could really believe they're working with the town and being transparent.
They're not though, but people putting effort in eventually learn how to play the game in the best manner. They want to improve.
If you somehow have statistics to back this up then I would probably come around.
People who put effort into trying to improve tend to improve. That's just general life. If I put effort into learning an instrument I tend to improve.
Yes but wouldn't it better to improve by learning how to read anti-town play?
If somebody in a football team is awful at kicking the ball, is it best for the team to damage-control or for that guy to invest some effort into improving? The latter. The game doesn't revolve around that player, if you are being a detriment you are responsible for that fact and solely you should be responsible. I've learned how to read anti-town play, anti-town doesn't equal scum. Still the better situation would be them actually learning how to play.
Mafia =/= Professional Sports

There is an objective way to correctly play a sport but there isn't for mafia.
I completely disagree.
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Post Post #87 (isolation #38) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:59 am

Post by wgeurts »

@Postie, and that's exactly why you shouldn't assign much worth to NKA. Secondly, if the town is being transparent and actually cooperating the chances of them being mislead are significantly smaller. It's also a very dangerous line to go down with players just pushing one person and hiding all other reads, people get it wrong, and without discussion the chances of them being wrong are significantly higher.
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Post Post #102 (isolation #39) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:32 am

Post by wgeurts »

In post 100, Creature wrote:Well, good town doesn't let a player coast to endgame without any sort of pressure.
Which is why I'm suggesting we simply start not tolerating them what so ever.
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Post Post #114 (isolation #40) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:42 pm

Post by wgeurts »

That's because those who are posting cases actually have something others can utilise and discuss, also furthering their own goals. If you never post a case you are really doing something wrong.
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Post Post #115 (isolation #41) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:46 pm

Post by wgeurts »

If you're using gut reads and also not participating in discussion of others posts then you're doing something doubly wrong, gut is not a ticket to not having to participate.
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Post Post #117 (isolation #42) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:58 pm

Post by wgeurts »

In post 116, RadiantCowbells wrote:Cases matter because the 'current site meta' (meant in a loose sense) requires you to post reasons to lynch people. In a universe where it didn't I would never post them.
Rationally speaking if you want to lynch someone it's best to explain why. Else this game would simply be a bunch of random votes. Without explanation there wouldn't be scum-hunting and town reads to form off content, only VCA.
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Post Post #119 (isolation #43) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:01 pm

Post by wgeurts »

You can try to wagon someone else as town without explaining why but you then fail to achieve the following:
Actually convince people as to why that slot is scum.
Skip the opportunity for others to assess your read and allow you to rethink.
Skip the opportunity for the one being wagoned to defend themselves.

So not only are you not going to get anywhere, you'll also be skipping all fail-safes. Not doing so is literally awful play.
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Post Post #120 (isolation #44) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:02 pm

Post by wgeurts »

RC, if nobody posts any reasons everything will be shitposting irrelevant to the game and accusations of alignment + votes. You'd be handicapping yourself.
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Post Post #121 (isolation #45) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:06 pm

Post by wgeurts »

Are you even capable of arguing why cases shouldn't be made with anything that doesn't come down to "I can't be bothered"?
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Post Post #124 (isolation #46) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:14 pm

Post by wgeurts »

Are you capable of providing any other example of communicating the reasons for a read besides argumentation.

Also, you're right it isn't always scum. This is a game of rhetoric so the better players win.
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Post Post #128 (isolation #47) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:11 pm

Post by wgeurts »

In post 125, RadiantCowbells wrote:My way, no one wins the game for being better at arguing or rhetoric.
This is literally the core of the game.
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Post Post #131 (isolation #48) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:20 pm

Post by wgeurts »

Also i completely disagree that the responsibility of a mislynch wholly lies on those pursuing it. It's a mix, and if someone isn't actually playing properly the fault can very much be mostly theirs. I've never said we should only work with cases, ideally everyone would be doing so. That's not the case right now, currently we have to damage control those not pulling their weight. That doesn't mean we should just accept that fact, the contrary it's true: we should strive for the ideal.

Those already playing have likely learned how to gain information from those not doing anything, that doesn't detract from the fact that those coasting learning how to play properly is the better scenario. It is objectively so that explanation and effort is beneficial in the majority of situations. That's basically mafia play. It's like playing football once again and having those not bothering to do anything saying that those actually attempting to win should just learn how to deal with the fact they're lazy. That's not how it works. Neither does it work like that in mafia.

I'm saying people should start at least trying to play the game properly. They don't have to give it their all, but if they're not willing to invest any effort they shouldn't be playing.
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Post Post #135 (isolation #49) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:29 pm

Post by wgeurts »

In post 132, RadiantCowbells wrote:If someone AFKs in a league of legends game at silver it's their fault for afking but it's also my fault for not being able to 4v5 a bunch of fucking silvers.

Blaming other people is always a dead end but improving yourself is something that you can always do.
And who has argued a single time that we shouldn't be improving?
We're arguing that others should do the same.
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Post Post #136 (isolation #50) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:30 pm

Post by wgeurts »

In post 133, RadiantCowbells wrote:You're also heavily implying that everyone ought to move towards playing the game your style with cases and walls and shit as if it's the ideal. I disagree.
No, I'm saying they should explain all claims they make.
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Post Post #138 (isolation #51) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:31 pm

Post by wgeurts »

In post 134, RadiantCowbells wrote:I am also not justifying blatant coasting nor failing to contribute anything. I
am
pointing out that burying your head in the sand and telling everyone how to play the game is a bad way to approach it.
Explaining yourself should be something standard with every playstyle.
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Post Post #144 (isolation #52) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:11 pm

Post by wgeurts »

In post 139, RadiantCowbells wrote:And if your read isn't something that can be put into words?
Then you probably shouldn't be relying on it or should seek a way to put it into words. Mafia isn't a spiritual game.
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i agree we should have a rule against wgeurts
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let's have 2 rules against wgeurts
" -
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Post Post #146 (isolation #53) » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:19 pm

Post by wgeurts »

I'm not saying you shouldn't pursue them, that's literally missing the entire gist of what I'm saying. I'm saying that people need to start trying to explain themselves more, and start working together as a collective. I could have left that part about gut reads out, as the entire point I was making is something entirely separate to the legitimacy of gut reads. I mentioned them as they're used an a excuse not to participate and actually invest effort.

Also you do understand how a gut read comes to be? You're either subconsciously seeing something or you're simply biasing yourself and getting lucky.
"
i agree we should have a rule against wgeurts
" -
Davsto

"
let's have 2 rules against wgeurts
" -
DeathRowKitty

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