Matrix6 BP fix

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Ircher
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Post Post #25  (ISO)  » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:29 pm

Matrix6 is fine as-is imo. The BP strategy improves winrates.
If anything nedds improving, it's quality control on ICs.
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Post Post #26  (ISO)  » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:30 pm

In post 25, Ircher wrote:Matrix6 is fine as-is imo. The BP strategy improves winrates.
If anything nedds improving, it's quality control on ICs.


I personally intend to make Newbies great again

UpTooLate
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Post Post #27  (ISO)  » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:34 pm

In post 25, Ircher wrote:Matrix6 is fine as-is imo. The BP strategy improves winrates.
If anything nedds improving, it's quality control on ICs.


This isn't a thread about IC quality control, and that's a project currently being worked on.

The BP strategy is not how newbies should be introduced to the site. Period. "Here's a setup, let's find a way to get around it." As it's been stated before, the BP can then easily get less invested because they are pretty much conftown and don't need to worry about saving themselves. It's just a slippery slope we don't need in the Newbie Queue.
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Post Post #28  (ISO)  » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:43 pm

maybe a one-shot or two-shot doctor.

just my 2 cents but what do yall think...

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Post Post #29  (ISO)  » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:46 pm

In post 24, mhsmith0 wrote:True, but it's IMO less of an unbalancing issue than BP auto claiming and then tracker knows that he's dealing with a doc if there's no BP claim.
I agree with this. (To be honest I knew it was a weak reason to start with; I just wanted to introduce the name "Backup6". Because it has a Backup and is a backup to Matrix6. It's like irony or something.)

In post 25, Ircher wrote:The BP strategy improves winrates.
Is that actually proven in practice though? I don't keep stats on it because using a strategy is not an easily trackable thing, but I heard someone else is.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.

Ircher
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Post Post #30  (ISO)  » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:08 pm

If it doesn't improve winrates, why is used?
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Post Post #31  (ISO)  » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:09 pm

It's a very low sample size thing, but IIRC it's not a major improvement. It ALSO creates a situation where a doctor fakeclaim becomes much more teneble in goon-goon, since once all claim BP or tracker, you have 50% odds of it being cop only, PLUS you have an easy built-in excuse for being alive after said fakeclaim ("I got roleblocked"). Amusingly, doctor fakeclaim was tried in 1774 and it was JK/goon/goon, and the fakeclaiming scum got autolynched :D
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Post Post #32  (ISO)  » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:09 pm

In post 30, Ircher wrote:If it doesn't improve winrates, why is used?

because people THINK it will improve win rates
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RadiantCowbells
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Post Post #33  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:47 am

FEELING SO FAITHLESS LOST UNDER THE SURFACE
i don't remember rc asking you if he could just win real quick - Schadd_
rc is going to win and i'm going to be sick to my stomach about it - Jake From State Farm
I rarely put in vigilantes into setups anymore - Firebringer

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Post Post #34  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:48 am

DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE EXPECTING OF ME
i don't remember rc asking you if he could just win real quick - Schadd_
rc is going to win and i'm going to be sick to my stomach about it - Jake From State Farm
I rarely put in vigilantes into setups anymore - Firebringer

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Post Post #35  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:16 am

make osbp active instead of passive, thoughts

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Post Post #36  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:38 am

In post 25, Ircher wrote:Matrix6 is fine as-is imo. The BP strategy improves winrates.
If anything nedds improving, it's quality control on ICs.


Follow the Cop was fairly balanced. There's precedent to changing the newbie set up when it fails to provide a quality experience for newbies going back to the very start.
In the dark, it's nearly invisible—until it exhales.

Toomai
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Post Post #37  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:39 am

In post 35, Lycanfire wrote:make osbp active instead of passive, thoughts
Would ruin town's already-shaky winrate in the BP setups, and newbie setups should probably keep to Normal roles for best education of site meta.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.

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Post Post #38  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:47 am

In post 37, Toomai wrote:
In post 35, Lycanfire wrote:make osbp active instead of passive, thoughts
Would ruin town's already-shaky winrate in the BP setups, and newbie setups should probably keep to Normal roles for best education of site meta.

Also the problem is that BP roles are incentivized to claim D1 (and towns are debatably incentivized to push for their claim or no claim), and this change fails to solve that problem.
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Creature
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Post Post #39  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:59 am

Wait, Universal Backup?

So if Mafia Roleblocker is lynched then town gets a Town Roleblocker?
I'm stuck there and I don't know what to do, yet I still can find fun somewhere.

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Post Post #40  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:07 am

UB only inherits roles from its own team. So can only inherit the JK role in column A, or tracker in row 3.
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Accountant
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Post Post #41  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:25 am

Just throwing something out there - Mafia Encryptor? I enjoyed the daytalk experiment.
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.

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Post Post #42  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:28 am

Day talk is a giant game changer and adds a lot of complexity to someone's first game.
In the dark, it's nearly invisible—until it exhales.

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Post Post #43  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:31 am

No it doesn't. It's a game changer, sure, but the point of this thread is to change the setup.

It doesn't add any complexity at all. Why the hell would a newbie fid the concept of day talk confusing? They already can grasp night talk, just extend it to day.
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.

Toomai
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Post Post #44  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:31 am

We're trying to change a reasonably-balanced setup as little as possible to disable the popular new claim strategy being paraded around. Let's not tweak more than what's needed.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.

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Post Post #45  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:32 am

Not conceptually but it adds a level of complexity to both forming reads and carrying those leads through to a lynch.
In the dark, it's nearly invisible—until it exhales.

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Post Post #46  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:34 am

In post 39, Creature wrote:Wait, Universal Backup?

So if Mafia Roleblocker is lynched then town gets a Town Roleblocker?


I've seen this mistake been made often enough by actual good players that it needs a line in the rules specifically refuting it
In the dark, it's nearly invisible—until it exhales.

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Post Post #47  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:34 am

Of the hypothetical newbie setup of course
In the dark, it's nearly invisible—until it exhales.

Toomai
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Post Post #48  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

Quickly thrown-together example role PM wrote:You are a Town Universal Backup. The first time a town-aligned player who is not a Vanilla Townie dies, you will inherit their role. You will receive the new role PM immediately once the other player has died. You will not receive information about any of that player's previous actions or results. If you die, you will be flipped as "Town Universal Backup" in all circumstances.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.

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Post Post #49  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:21 am

Matrix-5 Setup
(Designed by Creaure)

This setup came about in a discussion on how to improve Matrix 6. One of the problems that RadiantCowbells discovered was that Matrix-6 can be broken by a series of BP/Not-BP claims. From here, Matrix-5 was born.


this is a meme now right

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