The following roles have no place in Mafia...

[Mr. Flay]

1. Jesters are evil and stupid and do not know they are evil and stupid (except in Open Setups, where they are tolerable).
   
2. Non-SK Survivors are difficult as hell, but not inherently evil. They do have a strong tendency to compromise playstyle, which I disagree with (most times, anyone but an SK should be okay sacrificing themselves for their team). This tends to punish better players and reward lurkers. Not a great role, but not unsalvageable.
   
3. Scum Masons are fine but should (usually) have a reasonable chance of being discovered. Whether that's through the wording of the role PM, the presence of an excess of Cops, or flavor, is fine by me. Renaming non-confirmed Masons is stupid and evil.
   
4. I'm coming around to the idea that Millers should know they are Millers, but see Scum Masons. Hinting is acceptable.
   
5. Random/chance roles should be
   very
   rare, and probably never in anything smaller than 20 players.
   
6. Paranoid Gun Owner is fine, but they
   must
   know they are one. Otherwise, it's more bastardly than the Miller role. On the other hand, it's not necessary to point out to them exactly how their role works (
   i.e.
   do they kill anyone who comes to their door, or only killers?)
   
7. Non-Sane Cops in Minis should be encouraged.

In other words, "I agree with Seol".

I'm not discussing Cults here and now, as my ongoing game is already being meta-ed to death by the players.

[Mr. Flay]

I hate open setups with random role assignments only slightly less.

Huh? What does this mean?

[Mr. Flay]

Scum masons shouldn't be so common that masonhood is worthless, but everyone should understand at all times that it is a perfectly reasonable possibility.

I agree with this. The only thing I dislike about scum masons are if the mason is told by the mod their partner is a townie and (s)he isn't.

I have

never

seen this happen (except maybe the first game, when mole got his title), and I would yell at any mod who did it. That's called "lying to your players".

Oh...and on a side note, one of the big problems with Jester roles is that they don't really work, because the town dosn't have any reason to NOT lynch him. I mean, if someone claimed Jester day 1, I'd lynch him anyway, because the town's better off with him dead even if he's telling the truth.

People don't like lynching them though. Maybe it's something about the Jester actually winning and the rest of the people playing for second place or something.

If a 3 person mafia game with a SK, townie and Jester was going, then the townie wouldn't want to lynch the Jester. (For the sake of this example, self votes arn't allowed.)

It's pretty much a policy lynch, I think. No reasonable mod would make the Jester the ONLY winner in that situation, so it gets the distraction/desperate scum out of the way and let's the rest of the game continue. I would not consider that a 'second place" win in any way, shape, or form.

[Mr. Flay]

"Mason" should

imply

trust.

QFT

(emphasis added)

.

However, it does not

guarantee

trust. That genie has been out of the bottle for a long time...same as with Cop results being trustworthy and Godfathers being NK-immune.

[Mr. Flay]

A Cop's investigation power is what

makes

the role what it is, though. So does that mean Paranoid and Naïve Cops don't have a place in Mafia?

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you guys, in principle. However, in practice, Mason has not meant "guaranteed Pro-Town" (without the obligatory statement to that effect in the PM) in a long time. And when it does contain that phrase, it should be able to be relied upon (

Boycott All Liar Mods

).

[Mr. Flay]

I had four unconfirmed mason in my last mini-normal. All were town.

Four unconfirmed Masons (two sets) in Lost Boys; all started as town.

I love how Macros posts before reading the thread; it makes it feel like old times...

[Mr. Flay]

That pains me in ways you cannot imagine, Macros.

[Mr. Flay]

Anything Macros writes, by about midgame....