The New Newbie Game Setup

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Post Post #250  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:39 am

In post 248, mhsmith0 wrote:1) Pretty much all of the column A setups are very much "if the roleblocker gets lynched early, then scum will just lose" type setups, which are... fine? Newbie towns are pretty consistently poor at lynching scum early in general, much less the roleblocker specifically. If scum can't protect their roleblocker for even one day phase, then they deserve to lose.
Moreover, 3a (cop/doc/rb) in particular has been proven over time to be roughly balanced (town win rate >50% but not by a whole lot), and if add in daytalk AND take away the easy "a cop is auto-confirmed just by claiming" aspect, I think there's no reason to think that it should be substantially town-favored given overall newbie meta.
2) 3C is a block that LOOKS like it could be townsided given the potential of "follow the tracker", but in practice scum are winning that >50% of the time in the current meta, and that's with an essentially confirmed tracker AND no daytalk. Take away the auto-confirm of the tracker and add daytalk, and there's simply no way it's townsided in current newbie site meta.
3) 2B is actually one where you can argue against it just because of how messy it ends up being (tracker can guilty the rolecop), but I don't particularly think it's a balance issue unless you argue that the rolecop itself is a bad PR, in which case yeah I'd be fine with like odd night roleblocker instead.

That comment wasn't about balance; it was about swinginess. If 7 of 9 set-ups have potential to become degenerate, then there will be more degenerate games that won't appropriately serve the Newbie function. I can countenance having a bit of a problem in an otherwise good set-up but I would reject the current suggestion based on that alone.

mhsmith0 wrote:I also have a personal preference to have 12 cells instead of 9, since that reduces the setup gaming that comes from a smaller number of possibilities, but that's ultimately up to PP I think.

While I understand the desire for more variety in the newbie set-up, I think 12 set-ups would definitely be going too far in terms of being too much for a newbie to digest when playing, at least in the absence of significant structure to simplify understanding. Having to learn about 7 different power roles and trying to keep track of which combinations they show up in, doesn't seem insignificant to me.

With respect to frequency of power roles, a 9p semi-open newbie set-up is a slightly different ballgame than a 13p normal. Some roles just don't work as well, but on the upside the ones that do work are easier to understand, so I don't think, for example, that we have to worry about how a Town Roleblocker would play in a Newbie - they just try to hit the scum and they get a success on one of them. I'm also almost wholly unsympathetic to the notion that Mafia Roleblocker or Encryptor would be a better choice for a Newbie than Mafia Watcher because of how common they are outside the Newbie Queue when there's been a long-standing problem with too high mafia win rates which I attribute mostly to the willingness of Moderators to give goodies to their Mafias.
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Post Post #251  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:39 am

Actually, last I checked Normals with a Mafia Encryptor tended to be close to balanced, meaning that that role is being judged correctly. (Roleblocker isn't, though; scum nearly always win a Normal if they have one of those.)
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

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Post Post #252  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:46 am

In post 251, callforjudgement wrote:Actually, last I checked Normals with a Mafia Encryptor tended to be close to balanced, meaning that that role is being judged correctly. (Roleblocker isn't, though; scum nearly always win a Normal if they have one of those.)


:?: :?: :?:

10/3 games with mafia roleblocker (full)

Town Wins
1449
1481
1514
1527
1662
1666
1715
1772
1794
1850
1860 (this wasn't even in my sheet, idr why)
1874
1920

Scum Wins
1407
1457
1596
1653
1666
1709
1719

If anything, the evidence suggests pretty strongly that the NRG is OVERVALUING the power of the mafia roleblocker instead of undervaluing it.
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Post Post #253  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:33 pm

Hmm, maybe I misremembered the statistics or maybe they were really old.
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

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Post Post #254  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:13 pm

Was from July 2016.
GTKAS Moderator | Sysop & volunteer contributor for the MafiaScum wiki | IC Reviewer | My GTKAS

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Post Post #255  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:22 pm

Looking at the past eight 10/3 mini normals with standard issue roleblocker (only 1719 was a scum win):

Spoiler:
1709
1-shot gunsmith, JOAT, rolecop, doc
vs rb/watcher/goon

1715
cop, doc, rolecop, jailkeeper
vs rb/godfather/rolecop

1719
1-shot BP, 2x masons, doc
vs rb/goon/goon

1772
roleblocker, doctor, macho tracker
vs rb/goon/goon

1794
gunslinger, cop, doc (idr what gunslinger was)
vs rb/encryptor/goon

1850
cop, doc, vig
vs rb/encryptor/goon

1874
JOAT (doc/vig/rolecop), tracker, doctor, backup tracker
vs rb/goon/goon

1920
loyal cop, weak doc, ascetic, macho neapolitan
vs rb/goon/goon


It seems like the tendency is for designers to basically load town to the gills and then throw in a roleblocker. rb/goon/goon in particular seems to be not enough power for some of the things that we're seeing towns get.

Like, you look at 1850 and you basically have a 3-man masonry of town roles that aren't going to be lynchable, which means that unless the vig is awful (admittedly possible), you have 3 useful town roles that will additionally generate either night peeks (cop) or night kills inside the POE (vig), and with a doctor to potentially save people the scum team needs dead. Like, even if you had a day 1 massclaim of all town roles (obviously not the ideal outcome), you would STILL see scum unable to stop both the cop from peeking and vig from shooting since to actually make a reliable kill they need to block the doc.
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Post Post #256  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:42 am

I looked at the last proposed newbie setup and these are my proposed changes:

ABC
MafiaMafia RoleblockerMafia Night 1 RolecopMafia Goon
Row 1Town Cop and Town Universal BackupTown Cop and Town TrackerTown Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2Town Jailkeeper and Town DoctorTown Jailkeeper and Town TrackerTown Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3Town Cop and Town DoctorTown Universal Backup and Town DoctorTown Tracker and Town Universal Backup



You can possibly change the Night 1 Rolecop into a 1-shot Rolecop instead without changing much.

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Post Post #257  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:40 pm

Where are the updates? What happened? Newbie games all have BP claims now.

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Post Post #258  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:44 am

In post 257, Not Known 15 wrote:Where are the updates? What happened? Newbie games all have BP claims now.

That's hyperbolic. I skim every game to keep the stats, and I feel like the odds someone brings it up are closer to 60% or 65%. (This is not a statistical number, it's a guess.)
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.

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Post Post #259  (ISO)  » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:28 pm

I posted this in the old discussion thread,

But here it is again.

The problems this solves:

1) Newbies need a simpler set up. More focus on learning the ropes than the complexities of semi-open setups.
2) Only include setups that are proven to be balanced by the historical data from the new newbie Q (very close to 50%)
3) No way to use claims to break it (that I have thought of)

Yes, it does not include tracker set ups, and those can be fun but remember most newbies don't play that many games anyway so may never see all possible set ups. We should be encouraging people to move to other Q's with more advanced roles after they learn the ropes.

I call it List3 but you can call it however you want.



Chance
Row 1Town JailkeeperVanilla TownieMafia Goon50%
Row 2Town CopVanilla TownieMafia Goon25%
Row 3Town CopTown DoctorMafia Roleblocker25%


1) Flip a coin, if heads choose row #1, otherwise go do step (2).
2) Flip a coin, if heads choose row #2, tails choose row #3.
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Post Post #260  (ISO)  » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:38 pm

The cop setup in Row 2 should get a random n0 green check
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Post Post #261  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:13 am

In post 260, Alisae wrote:The cop setup in Row 2 should get a random n0 green check


I'm not opposed to it. But consider:

Row 2 has already ~47% WR for town which is pretty fair. My guess is that this makes the cop a lot more powerful. On D2 he can have a guilty or confirm up to 3 people which is a lot PoE wise. (assuming 7 are alive)

I do get that the cop is slightly weak against mafia fake claims. But it's fine to trade the PR for a guilty in any case, and I think it's fair the PR is dead after the first mafia lynch.

It is hard to predict how much of a jump this will have in the WR. My suggestion is that if it is not broken then we shouldn't try to fix it.
just because you get evil player role doesn't mean you are a evil person at HEART - KainTepes!!!

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Post Post #262  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:53 am

What do you think about Doc/Jailkeeper/Roleblocker?

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Post Post #263  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:34 am

In post 259, Toto wrote:1) Newbies need a simpler set up. More focus on learning the ropes than the complexities of semi-open setups.

Counterpoint: SEs and ICs need a setup that's sufficiently interesting or they'll grow tired of it and stop joining the newbie queue.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.

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Post Post #264  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:56 am

In post 263, Toomai wrote:
In post 259, Toto wrote:1) Newbies need a simpler set up. More focus on learning the ropes than the complexities of semi-open setups.

Counterpoint: SEs and ICs need a setup that's sufficiently interesting or they'll grow tired of it and stop joining the newbie queue.


Ok, this is just my opinion and I'm sure some people may disagree with me. But PR mechanics is only like 10% of what makes mafia an interesting game.

As an SE, I don't think I've ever joined a newbie game because of the set up in terms of PR composition was interesting before. I actually liked that the set up was somewhat simple and at least I know what I'm getting into in terms of balance, and it is mostly a place for me to learn how to day-mafia on a forum based mafia game.

ICs should be mostly about teaching people how to day-mafia. PR mechanics is something everyone can figure out using logic. Day mafia is a pretty hard thing to master, and the bread and butter of the game. This is what newbies should be focused on.

Is this actually a problem we are trying to solve? It sounds like the current proposed solution is designed for the recurrent SE/ICs and not the actual newbies IMHO.
just because you get evil player role doesn't mean you are a evil person at HEART - KainTepes!!!

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Post Post #265  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:25 pm

In post 264, Toto wrote:
In post 263, Toomai wrote:
In post 259, Toto wrote:1) Newbies need a simpler set up. More focus on learning the ropes than the complexities of semi-open setups.

Counterpoint: SEs and ICs need a setup that's sufficiently interesting or they'll grow tired of it and stop joining the newbie queue.


Ok, this is just my opinion and I'm sure some people may disagree with me. But PR mechanics is only like 10% of what makes mafia an interesting game.

As an SE, I don't think I've ever joined a newbie game because of the set up in terms of PR composition was interesting before. I actually liked that the set up was somewhat simple and at least I know what I'm getting into in terms of balance, and it is mostly a place for me to learn how to day-mafia on a forum based mafia game.

ICs should be mostly about teaching people how to day-mafia. PR mechanics is something everyone can figure out using logic. Day mafia is a pretty hard thing to master, and the bread and butter of the game. This is what newbies should be focused on.

Is this actually a problem we are trying to solve? It sounds like the current proposed solution is designed for the recurrent SE/ICs and not the actual newbies IMHO.

This is true. The core premise of Mafiascum, scumhunting on the day, still exists with these setups. If there are less than 3 SE's possible, then use only two. IC's come to teach anyways.

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Post Post #266  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:21 pm

In post 264, Toto wrote:Is this actually a problem we are trying to solve? It sounds like the current proposed solution is designed for the recurrent SE/ICs and not the actual newbies IMHO.


They are also trying to introduce day talk into the set up, or at least that is my understanding.

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Post Post #267  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:49 pm

In post 259, Toto wrote:1) Newbies need a simpler set up. More focus on learning the ropes than the complexities of semi-open setups.


Like the theory. but
Pretty sure it will make a game with much more emphasis on how to know the setup and decide when and how to fake claim as scum.

The "complexity" of the other setup up option IMO drives the games towards relying on reads of the words players put in posts.
(people play as Vts)
And not to rely on knowing the setup. (use roles as crutches)

This 3d3 setup below leaves more players, for more of the game, not knowing precisely what they are up against.
The town JK in the 3d3 setup still operating in state of not knowing, what the possible roles are preserves more of the operating, in an unknown situation vs unknown opponents. Which is for me the core of playing mafia. In your 1of 3 setup the Jk always knows he entire setup.

Spoiler: for ref if you need it : the setup
In post 12, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 9, Creature wrote:I guess a least confusing table would be this:
Number 1Number 2Number 3
First dieMafia
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon
Number 2Number 3Number 2Number 3Number 2Number 3
Second dieTownTown TrackerTown RoleblockerTown DoctorTown RolecopTown DoctorTown Rolecop
Third dieTownTown CopTown JailkeeperTown CopTown JailkeeperTown TrackerTown Roleblocker

* = Number 1s other than first die are rerolled


I like this. Will be easy to swap in.

If its still confusing...

We can make purpose specific LOCKED thread with a self help guide.....
Spoiler: Example Thread
AKA we can(if it is good idea to) dumb down and boiler plate the mechanics, (spoon feed info)
so that newbies do not need to workout setups, basically at all.
At the game start this thread would have one post that tells them specifically what they need to know about what they would know if they analyzed the 3d3 setup like a moderately experienced player.
I would leave them to work out what it means when they see some flips. The posts in this thread, with minimal reading, get them all up to a base starting level. Then they play. (hopefully according primarily to the VT guide)

Post 1 wrote:Click on appropriate links to find information relevant to you.
You are a newbie playing in the newbie Queue Yes No





If you are a Vanilla Townie Click Here
If You are a Jail Keeper Click Here

... Blah blah the other roles blah

You are the IC Click here



Post 2 wrote:You are a Vanilla townie.

Your only weapons are your vote and your posts. use them to find scum. ... use them.
some very succinct/clear: blah blah.

<Then for those willing to read and think.>
Here are some useful guides. << Guides structured to target various levels of competence. best guides for 14 yr old turning up to play is different to post grads sick of writing their thesis/lit review. >>



Post 3 wrote:You are a Jail Keeper.

First and most important nearly all the time during the game, every post you make should be made much the same as if you are a Vanilla Townie.
Reading that guide is thus actually much more important to you right now at the start of the game day than reading this one go do that.... please.
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Go On. You know you want to.

<sigh>

Ok about the setup You are a Jk and you know the following things.

This game also either has a Town RoleBlocker and a scum RoleBlocker or A scum RoleCop and a town RoleCop
As soon as either a Rolecop or a Role Blocker flips you know what the other one is.
The people with the other Roles also dont know what role you have.

If there is scum Role Blocker in the game they know this <link to scum Roleblocker Guide.>
If there is Town Role Blocker in the game they know this <link to Town Roleblocker Guide.>
... blah blah

<Role and Action advice for JK. specific to its use in this setup. Goes here>

Now go read the VT guide. please.




Post N wrote:Pick one.
Go away troll.
Dont panic. Someone will pretend lynch you shortly and the pain will end. (ie you will wake up in bed calm and peaceful well rested, having escaped the nightmare.)

Note: If you are just curious/serious newbie, who is reading everything they can. An important thing to remember, is the game is meant to be srs fun, not just one or the other.


<takes three steps backwards>
Obviously i should not write the thread. As I would have too much fun.
And possibly fail to work towards the thread con.<making newbies feel safe and comfortable>


But with such a thread it is possible to write really simple stuff that is very specific to the role PM they have, that erases most of the complexity of working out combinatorics(setup analysis) like stuff.
but leaves them knowing the short list of facts a marginally experienced player would know having played several 3d3 games without reading such guide.

The thing that achieves that is by writing task specific prescriptive posts tailored to specific persons actual situation.

I strongly suggest making sure each post strongly emphasizes that the most important post to read no matter their actual role is the one on how to play like a VT.

If people coming out of the newbie Queue lean how to play like VTs, I would be chuffed.

postedit: agree with this
In post 268, acidphoenix wrote:I don't think compromising a la Toto's suggestion between these two ideals is helpful, and if we actually are going to gut setup nuance, then jk9 every game is actually a serious suggestion

but had different way to remove complexity(barrier to entry/learning curve) out of a setup that is not simply make it an open one.
Last edited by AxleGreaser on Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:11 pm, edited 7 times in total.
0 preemptive universal Bah
1: ≈getting better all the time.
2: pick one: :) :] :lol: rinse: repeat.

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Post Post #268  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:01 pm

if the goal is to minimize setup nuance, I'd rather have every game be jailkeeper 9

if the goal is to minimize setup nuance while teaching newbies to play a variety of prs, I'd rather have 3d3(or some similar setup in complexity)

I don't think compromising a la Toto's suggestion between these two ideals is helpful, and if we actually are going to gut setup nuance, then jk9 every game is actually a serious suggestion
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Post Post #269  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:05 pm

I'm ok to make the set up even simpler. No complaints from me.
just because you get evil player role doesn't mean you are a evil person at HEART - KainTepes!!!

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Post Post #270  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:00 pm

In post 230, mhsmith0 wrote:Where we're currently at:

ABC
MafiaMafia RoleblockerMafia RolecopMafia Goon
Row 1Town Cop and Town NeopolitanTown Cop and Town TrackerTown Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2Town Jailkeeper and Town DoctorTown Jailkeeper and Town TrackerTown Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3Town Cop and Town DoctorTown Neopolitan and Town DoctorTown Tracker and Town Doctor


Pick a column for mafia role, pick a row for associated town roles, add 1 goon and 5 VTs.

quoting the setup that made it through and bumping the topic. also note that scum have daytalk.
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Post Post #271  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 pm

quick thoughts–

is doctor too safe of a fakeclaim from scum? given that town won't know exactly what column they're in, the only reliable way for a mafia doctor fakeclaim to be countered is for there to be a real doctor who can counterclaim, or the flip of the mafia power role confirming to one of the town prs what column they're in.

in fact, are all fakeclaims too reliable? it seems to me in general that counterclaiming in this setup becomes harder, which means either more town prs will end up lynched or more scum will get falsely confirmed.

i'm interested to see how the first games with the new setup will play out.
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