The New Newbie Game Setup

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Post Post #250  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:39 am

In post 248, mhsmith0 wrote:1) Pretty much all of the column A setups are very much "if the roleblocker gets lynched early, then scum will just lose" type setups, which are... fine? Newbie towns are pretty consistently poor at lynching scum early in general, much less the roleblocker specifically. If scum can't protect their roleblocker for even one day phase, then they deserve to lose.
Moreover, 3a (cop/doc/rb) in particular has been proven over time to be roughly balanced (town win rate >50% but not by a whole lot), and if add in daytalk AND take away the easy "a cop is auto-confirmed just by claiming" aspect, I think there's no reason to think that it should be substantially town-favored given overall newbie meta.
2) 3C is a block that LOOKS like it could be townsided given the potential of "follow the tracker", but in practice scum are winning that >50% of the time in the current meta, and that's with an essentially confirmed tracker AND no daytalk. Take away the auto-confirm of the tracker and add daytalk, and there's simply no way it's townsided in current newbie site meta.
3) 2B is actually one where you can argue against it just because of how messy it ends up being (tracker can guilty the rolecop), but I don't particularly think it's a balance issue unless you argue that the rolecop itself is a bad PR, in which case yeah I'd be fine with like odd night roleblocker instead.

That comment wasn't about balance; it was about swinginess. If 7 of 9 set-ups have potential to become degenerate, then there will be more degenerate games that won't appropriately serve the Newbie function. I can countenance having a bit of a problem in an otherwise good set-up but I would reject the current suggestion based on that alone.

mhsmith0 wrote:I also have a personal preference to have 12 cells instead of 9, since that reduces the setup gaming that comes from a smaller number of possibilities, but that's ultimately up to PP I think.

While I understand the desire for more variety in the newbie set-up, I think 12 set-ups would definitely be going too far in terms of being too much for a newbie to digest when playing, at least in the absence of significant structure to simplify understanding. Having to learn about 7 different power roles and trying to keep track of which combinations they show up in, doesn't seem insignificant to me.

With respect to frequency of power roles, a 9p semi-open newbie set-up is a slightly different ballgame than a 13p normal. Some roles just don't work as well, but on the upside the ones that do work are easier to understand, so I don't think, for example, that we have to worry about how a Town Roleblocker would play in a Newbie - they just try to hit the scum and they get a success on one of them. I'm also almost wholly unsympathetic to the notion that Mafia Roleblocker or Encryptor would be a better choice for a Newbie than Mafia Watcher because of how common they are outside the Newbie Queue when there's been a long-standing problem with too high mafia win rates which I attribute mostly to the willingness of Moderators to give goodies to their Mafias.
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callforjudgement
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Post Post #251  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:39 am

Actually, last I checked Normals with a Mafia Encryptor tended to be close to balanced, meaning that that role is being judged correctly. (Roleblocker isn't, though; scum nearly always win a Normal if they have one of those.)
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

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Post Post #252  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:46 am

In post 251, callforjudgement wrote:Actually, last I checked Normals with a Mafia Encryptor tended to be close to balanced, meaning that that role is being judged correctly. (Roleblocker isn't, though; scum nearly always win a Normal if they have one of those.)


:?: :?: :?:

10/3 games with mafia roleblocker (full)

Town Wins
1449
1481
1514
1527
1662
1666
1715
1772
1794
1850
1860 (this wasn't even in my sheet, idr why)
1874
1920

Scum Wins
1407
1457
1596
1653
1666
1709
1719

If anything, the evidence suggests pretty strongly that the NRG is OVERVALUING the power of the mafia roleblocker instead of undervaluing it.
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callforjudgement
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Post Post #253  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:33 pm

Hmm, maybe I misremembered the statistics or maybe they were really old.
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

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Post Post #254  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:13 pm

Was from July 2016.
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Post Post #255  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:22 pm

Looking at the past eight 10/3 mini normals with standard issue roleblocker (only 1719 was a scum win):

Spoiler:
1709
1-shot gunsmith, JOAT, rolecop, doc
vs rb/watcher/goon

1715
cop, doc, rolecop, jailkeeper
vs rb/godfather/rolecop

1719
1-shot BP, 2x masons, doc
vs rb/goon/goon

1772
roleblocker, doctor, macho tracker
vs rb/goon/goon

1794
gunslinger, cop, doc (idr what gunslinger was)
vs rb/encryptor/goon

1850
cop, doc, vig
vs rb/encryptor/goon

1874
JOAT (doc/vig/rolecop), tracker, doctor, backup tracker
vs rb/goon/goon

1920
loyal cop, weak doc, ascetic, macho neapolitan
vs rb/goon/goon


It seems like the tendency is for designers to basically load town to the gills and then throw in a roleblocker. rb/goon/goon in particular seems to be not enough power for some of the things that we're seeing towns get.

Like, you look at 1850 and you basically have a 3-man masonry of town roles that aren't going to be lynchable, which means that unless the vig is awful (admittedly possible), you have 3 useful town roles that will additionally generate either night peeks (cop) or night kills inside the POE (vig), and with a doctor to potentially save people the scum team needs dead. Like, even if you had a day 1 massclaim of all town roles (obviously not the ideal outcome), you would STILL see scum unable to stop both the cop from peeking and vig from shooting since to actually make a reliable kill they need to block the doc.
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Post Post #256  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:42 am

I looked at the last proposed newbie setup and these are my proposed changes:

ABC
MafiaMafia RoleblockerMafia Night 1 RolecopMafia Goon
Row 1Town Cop and Town Universal BackupTown Cop and Town TrackerTown Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2Town Jailkeeper and Town DoctorTown Jailkeeper and Town TrackerTown Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3Town Cop and Town DoctorTown Universal Backup and Town DoctorTown Tracker and Town Universal Backup



You can possibly change the Night 1 Rolecop into a 1-shot Rolecop instead without changing much.

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