Criticism of Geriatric

[Flubbernugget]

The fact that this thread was made completely oblivious to the other geriatric discussion thread is pretty hard evidence that people arguing against slow games are doing so for nothing more than the sake of making noise.

Which is, ironically enough, one of the biggest issues with spam posting.

[Flubbernugget]

I didn’t really like Aristophanes thread on this, it had more feel of explaining getriatric than actually offering ideas on improving it.
Maybe I didn’t do it well here since everyone is taking “criticism” as in just to complain.

When there's literally one point in here than hasn't been said a million times before then yes, it is just to complain.

If your main gripe was taken seriously in this thread, it would have absolutely been taken seriously in the other one.

[Flubbernugget]

Like I've never seen a hyper poster shit on a player who does 1 long post a day (i am sure some people do) but low volume posters like to shit on hyper posters all the time.

You were literally in a game where I got apathy lynched for this kind of activity.

[Flubbernugget]

Cool, so you literally just contradicted your gripe.

[Flubbernugget]

And again, spam posting in and of itself isn't bad. It's when it's a symptom of such blatant inattentiveness (like that of which we have just witnessed) that it becomes an issue.

[Flubbernugget]

All this does is keep divisons

viewtopic.php?p=9861955#p9861955

In case you would like more proof that spam posters are complaining because they like making noise.

[Flubbernugget]

You're placing all this emphasis on the individual in a

team

game, while accusing others of being divisive. It really shows that you don't actually care about what is and isn't divisive.

Tangentially, your recollection of that game is objectively wrong.

[Flubbernugget]

I'm not complaining about people carrying games?

[Flubbernugget]

This is also the second time you've disrespected me in this thread, again proving that slower players aren't more likely to belittle fast players than the inverse.

[Flubbernugget]

^^yep

Though to answer your question the ones complaining that the site is becoming divisive probably should care about whether or not the game is being played as a team.

[Flubbernugget]

Like I've never seen a hyper poster shit on a player who does 1 long post a day (i am sure some people do) but low volume posters like to shit on hyper posters all the time.

Also, Alisae, this is you, bringing up the pace of how people play, to which I am going to point out evidence that suggests your statement is incorrect. The only reason the conversation would have nothing to do with pace at this point is inattentiveness.

[Flubbernugget]

That is a fair point. It hit me afterwards that it may not have been an alt.

I'm still entitled to bring forth evidence against the claim either way.

[Flubbernugget]

I would also like to know why you feel it's acceptable to be concerned about how divisive the site is while not being concerned about playing mafia as a team.

[Flubbernugget]

I would also like to know why you feel it's acceptable to be concerned about how divisive the site is while not being concerned about playing mafia as a team.

What in the world is this connection between the two things

You make new friendships and bonds when you encourage people to work together in ways they haven't had to before. That should be like, a really really basic life skill.

Alisae, that's tangential to the point that the biggest criticism of the geriatric rule set is that it's clique-ish and harmful to the community.

[Flubbernugget]

I understand where you're coming from Firebringer, but I also think setting soft limits on post count brings an extra subjective factor into the game that actually

can

make the geriatric idea divisive and clique-ish. The immediate thing I suspect is that newer players interested in a slower game would get less preferential treatment to older players.

I think if players are constantly running up close to the limit, they're not playing to the intent of the rules.

[Flubbernugget]

I think good evidence that gpc sucks is that when people are tearing it apart we are the most united in a topic I’ve ever seen

If we ignore that you're one of two people total fighting this at the minute, this is then evidence that geriatric is uniting people on the site. Which means you are again, just making noise to make noise.

[Flubbernugget]

It also shows, again, that toxicity isn't related to geriatric support.

[Flubbernugget]

I don't have anything against a town leader, which if done correctly, makes the game less divisive. I've never said I'm against one either.

[Flubbernugget]

I also have more proof that pro-spam posters are making noise for the sake of making noise now though. LUV has just suggested town can't sacrifice their individuality to play, but still wants everyone to play in conformance to keeping up with spam posters, which sacrifices individuality.

[Flubbernugget]

Go on

[Flubbernugget]

I disagree that spamming goes against the spirit of the game.

[Flubbernugget]

I think it's a product of internet culture being faster and full of quips

[Flubbernugget]

Ellibereth has a point as far as the extremes are concerned.

I'd probably be a lot more comfortable with the geriatric post limit being doubled or tripled, but I don't think I'm purely their target demographic either.

[Flubbernugget]

I don't think experiments will ever be useful for determining effective mafia communication. There are too many subjective variables. I've always tried to argue about how to play mafia days from more universal truths or standpoints. As and example, a large part of the wallpost I made in the site meta thread is applicable to more team based games than mafia.

Keeping the universality idea in mind, I think of computer databases when I hear the argument that information for the sake of information is good for town. I haven't done a lot of work with database systems, but if you ever take the time to learn them, you will come across one common theme: they're useful because they can instantaneously trough through shit to find and correlate useful information. Humans cannot do this instantaneously, which means the utility of the information dispensed has to be carefully managed and considered.

Note that posting meaningfully does not mean someone can't spam post. It just means that if you're spam posting, you're

probably

not making as many good points as you should be. I've noted that ETL is a very strong rapid poster, but she is always making good points that progress the game, her reads are rock solid, and she is tough to lynch as either alignment. Off the top of my head, Thor might fall in this category too, but I've seen him lured into trudging a game towards apathy.

I have noted on several occasions that spam posting does not bother me, but posting in non-persuasive or inaccurate ways and expecting volume to compensate does. You'll never find me in a game complaining about a spam posters strictly over their post count, though I may point to it as a symptom of poorly thinking through a situation.

Every single time I mention that my issue is not with post volume, but with poor communication, spam posters find another way to lump me into some imaginary team against them and shift the argument strictly back to post volume.

Also, I'm curious as to why Firebringer thinks posting style comes first and the argument follows. I used to be really spammy with quote responses when I caught up in a game, but when it was getting me scum read on the basis of me not doing much in the game, I used a smaller post volume as a tool to format my posts in a way that's better understood.

[Flubbernugget]

Your last suggestion was a good one. Do you have another?

(That sounds a lot more sarcastic than it should. It's a 100% serious question.)

[Flubbernugget]

I am reading through it now (up to pg 13 atm) and would like to compare and contrast it to fireworks mafia when I am done reading it.

The first thing I think worth noting is that chesskid is one of the players I would consider better at effectively communicating amidst spam, and phrases arguments well enough that people will react to them with them having to be rammed down someone's throat.

[Flubbernugget]

The general idea I get behind firebringer's posting is that there's a balance between massive spamming and hard post limits. I don't think that's a bad faith stance to hold. I do think that if players payed more attention to how meaningful their interactions were, it would be a lot more palpable to slower players. I just don't think players have good enough judgment skills on the value of their posts.

[Flubbernugget]

Yet you continue to bicker with me, conflating "pay more attention and write better" with "post less" every time.

[Flubbernugget]

If that's the case, then the head butting probably isn't going to change, because we still can't get people to even post in the right thread about it.

[Flubbernugget]

Did i miss a post in the zor thread or somewhere else that actually showed that town winrates now are actually so drastically sucky compared to the past.

I think there's been talk in the nrg about how they've had to buff towns to keep the winrate even. Don't quote me though.

[Flubbernugget]

when we pass shit like mulch's set up and towns still lose then we don't know what to do anymore.

??? Mulch's game was tainted from cheating

[Flubbernugget]

... Dude you just lost all your credibility on what makes a town good

[Flubbernugget]

I mean, understanding settup balance and understanding how to play mafia well are two disjoint skills.

That's fair.

Saying that's not a lot of town power is beyond absurd though

[Flubbernugget]

Have you hosted more than one game, Mulch?