Multiple Scum Groups

[petroleumjelly]

Moderators should stop using multiple scum groups. Although I could probably turn this into an essay with multiple arguments and subarguments, I am going to simply make a single argument for now.

Moderators can never truly account for cross-kills / coordinated kills against Town.

Let's take two extremes:

Example One

2 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, 8 Townies

Day One

: Lynch Townie 1

Night One

: Mafia kills Werewolf; Werewolf kills Mafia

Day Two

: Lynch Townie 2

Night Two

: Mafia kills Werewolf, Werewolf kills Mafia

Town wins.

Example Two

2 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, 8 Townies

Day One

: Lynch Mafia

Night One

: Mafia kills Townie 1, Werewolves kill Townie 2

Day Two

: Lynch Werewolf

Night Two

: Mafia kills Townie 3, Werewolves kill Townie 4

Day Three

: Lynch Mafia

Night Three

: Werewolf kills Townie 5

Day Four

: 3 Townies v 1 Werewolf

Now Town is in LyLo despite a completely perfect (and amazing) lynching record. In other words, if the Town has a perfect record but lynches "in the wrong order" and the scum groups can effectively coordinate their kills, the Town is suddenly forced to have a 100% accurate lynching record to win. Certainly this is not fair. And it is similarly unfair that a Town can win a game without lynching correctly even a single time. In other words, multiple scum groups are inherently going to be swingly.

In my opinion, Towns should generally win if they lynch (or kill, if there is a Vigilante) scum more often than the average amount of scum. But once you use multiple scum-groups, a Moderator simply cannot properly accounted for how the Night phase is invariably going to have a large effect on the outcome of the game.

[Vi]

1) Thirteen-player Minis help this; in particular, it stops the Town from losing after one mislynch in the worst case.
2) Following games like Gorrad's recently completed Large Theme it seems that people are starting to notice that when there are multiple scum teams, their size should be more limited than people may expect. (There is an obvious recent counterexample that ended in disaster, but anyway.)

While it is entirely possible for scumteams to annihilate each other while the Town does nothing to win, it's not as common as Town losing at an accelerated pace due to multiple Town deaths per Night.

[hitogoroshi]

Have each faction larger, but with factional White Flag, seems like it would eat the swing handily. Can't know for sure without testing but it's good on the face of it.

[Yosarian2]

Eh. This is true, and it makes the games more swingy. That's an inevitable fact of any multifaction mafia game.

I think there are enough bonuses to playing in one of those games to make it worth the extra swingyness, and the long tail PJ's talking about here. The strategy involved, the manipulation, the attempts to figure out not only who the scum are but what group they are in, scumgroups hunting each other both at day and at night; all if it adds layers of interest and complexity to the game that just can't exist in one faction scum games.

(shrug) I like both types of games, personally. One faction games are more about pure scumhunting, multifaction games are more complicated and involve more manipulation, calculation, and planning. Both are fun.

[The Fonz]

Accounting for opposing groups and the possibility of crosskills adds an extra layer of skill to scum play though. Plus, multifaction games have a tendency to inherently re-balance against whoever is 'winning' at a given time, which keeps games interesting (scumgroups which have lost members are less likely to be crosskilled, town lynches make crosskills more likely because the scum form a greater proportion of the player pool).

[Faraday]

I like multiscum games, they're fun. They are inherently harder to balance, but meh.

[AGar]

Fuck multiscum games.

-_-

Drawing scum in a game like that is more depressing than getting VT role after VT role after VT role.

[DeathRowKitty]

Drawing scum in a game like that is more depressing than getting VT role after VT role after VT role.

I like being VT. :<


The one time I was in a game with two scum groups, it was in a 12 player normal and I was in one of the 2-man scum groups. Town failed to lynch correctly at all (only 3 days, but still...) and the two scum teams did a great job of teaming up to kill off only town players until the final night. Basically, it was:

Day 1

: Lynch townie 1

Night 1

: Mafia kills townie 2, Werewolves kill townie 3

Day 2

: Lynch Townie 4

Night 2

: Mafia kills townie 5, Werewolves kill townie 6

Day 3

: Lynch townie 7

Night 3

: Werewolves kill townie 8, Mafia kill werewolf
/mafia win

Of course, it's largely the town's fault for failing to lynch correctly, but town was really not well off after just two mislynches here. The thing about having multiple scum teams is that situations like this and situations in the OP aren't necessarily going to be entirely preventable (depending on number of players and total number of scum). Having that many scum, as well as 2 kills per night cycle, is inherently going to make the setup very swingy. I'm personally not a fan of multiple scum groups, but there are enough people who enjoy them that the extra swinginess can be worth it.

Yeah, the game will suck for the scum team in example 1 and for the town in example 2, but there's really not much you can do about it. Well, you can just not have multiple scum teams in a 12 player game (I don't think multiple scum teams are worth it in games that small anyway), but that shouldn't be a big issue with 13 player minis.

[ReaperCharlie]

Moderators should stop using multiple scum groups.

I found the problem in the OP! ^ Hope this helps!





...

Also, people should pre/in for Metropolis: Revisited!

[The Fonz]

DRK: that's because multiple killing roles in minis specifically are always swingy. Vigs are swingy too. Most games with multiscum tend to be large.

[DeathRowKitty]

That's definitely part of it, but with multiple scum groups, you have the added element of cross-kills to potentially make the game even more swingy. Plus, by the time the vig has the chance to lose the town the game, he'll have a bunch of townies screaming down his neck to stop shooting, which does help to reduce one side of the swing a bit.

[Espeonage]

Remind me to come back here after a game of mine finishes on a different site. They have different rules so I'm doing multiple scumgroups. (Their standard is 25 person 2 mafias 1 SK)

Anyway I'm using a little mechanic to encourage a certain thing to happen in the mafia interplay and built from there.

[Antihero]

Moderators should stop using multiple scum groups. Although I could probably turn this into an essay with multiple arguments and subarguments, I am going to simply make a single argument for now.

Moderators can never truly account for cross-kills / coordinated kills against Town.

Let's take two extremes:

Example One

2 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, 8 Townies

Day One

: Lynch Townie 1

Night One

: Mafia kills Werewolf; Werewolf kills Mafia

Day Two

: Lynch Townie 2

Night Two

: Mafia kills Werewolf, Werewolf kills Mafia

Town wins.

Example Two

2 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, 8 Townies

Day One

: Lynch Mafia

Night One

: Mafia kills Townie 1, Werewolves kill Townie 2

Day Two

: Lynch Werewolf

Night Two

: Mafia kills Townie 3, Werewolves kill Townie 4

Day Three

: Lynch Mafia

Night Three

: Werewolf kills Townie 5

Day Four

: 3 Townies v 1 Werewolf

Couldn't you just swap "2 Werewolves" for "Vigilante" (in example 1 "Kickass Vigilante" and in example 2 "Crappy Vigilante") and make the same argument?

[Forgotten Felix]

Couldn't you just swap "2 Werewolves" for "Vigilante" (in example 1 "Kickass Vigilante" and in example 2 "Crappy Vigilante") and make the same argument?

This, and SK. Still perfectly possible I'd say.

[Zachrulez]

Drawing scum in a game like that is more depressing than getting VT role after VT role after VT role.

I like being VT. :<


The one time I was in a game with two scum groups, it was in a 12 player normal and I was in one of the 2-man scum groups. Town failed to lynch correctly at all (only 3 days, but still...) and the two scum teams did a great job of teaming up to kill off only town players until the final night. Basically, it was:

Day 1

: Lynch townie 1

Night 1

: Mafia kills townie 2, Werewolves kill townie 3

Day 2

: Lynch Townie 4

Night 2

: Mafia kills townie 5, Werewolves kill townie 6

Day 3

: Lynch townie 7

Night 3

: Werewolves kill townie 8, Mafia kill werewolf
/mafia win

Of course, it's largely the town's fault for failing to lynch correctly, but town was really not well off after just two mislynches here. The thing about having multiple scum teams is that situations like this and situations in the OP aren't necessarily going to be entirely preventable (depending on number of players and total number of scum). Having that many scum, as well as 2 kills per night cycle, is inherently going to make the setup very swingy. I'm personally not a fan of multiple scum groups, but there are enough people who enjoy them that the extra swinginess can be worth it.

Yeah, the game will suck for the scum team in example 1 and for the town in example 2, but there's really not much you can do about it. Well, you can just not have multiple scum teams in a 12 player game (I don't think multiple scum teams are worth it in games that small anyway), but that shouldn't be a big issue with 13 player minis.

Doing it over again, I would have given the town a doctor in that setup, or I would have run it as a 13p (probably also with a doctor.)

A doc wouldn't eliminate the swinginess, but it might reduce it.

[chesskid3]

Drawing scum in a game like that is more depressing than getting VT role after VT role after VT role.

I like being VT. :<


The one time I was in a game with two scum groups, it was in a 12 player normal and I was in one of the 2-man scum groups. Town failed to lynch correctly at all (only 3 days, but still...) and the two scum teams did a great job of teaming up to kill off only town players until the final night. Basically, it was:

Day 1

: Lynch townie 1

Night 1

: Mafia kills townie 2, Werewolves kill townie 3

Day 2

: Lynch Townie 4

Night 2

: Mafia kills townie 5, Werewolves kill townie 6

Day 3

: Lynch townie 7

Night 3

: Werewolves kill townie 8, Mafia kill werewolf
/mafia win

Of course, it's largely the town's fault for failing to lynch correctly, but town was really not well off after just two mislynches here. The thing about having multiple scum teams is that situations like this and situations in the OP aren't necessarily going to be entirely preventable (depending on number of players and total number of scum). Having that many scum, as well as 2 kills per night cycle, is inherently going to make the setup very swingy. I'm personally not a fan of multiple scum groups, but there are enough people who enjoy them that the extra swinginess can be worth it.

Yeah, the game will suck for the scum team in example 1 and for the town in example 2, but there's really not much you can do about it. Well, you can just not have multiple scum teams in a 12 player game (I don't think multiple scum teams are worth it in games that small anyway), but that shouldn't be a big issue with 13 player minis.

i was in one like this
D1: town lynch
N1: scumteam1 and town die
D2: town lynch
N2: scumteam2 and town cop die
D3: town lynch
N3: scumteam 1 and town doc die
D4: town lynch, scumteam 2 win.

it was sad (but i was scum so yay)

[PokerFace]

I <3 multiscum group games. I prefer being scum rather than being town and if I am scum I get the best of both worlds as I can hunt the other informed minority. Much fun. I have also enjoyed being town in multiscum games whether I knew there were multiple scum groups in the game at its start or not. So I have no problem with this, I can't recall a time where I got screwed by the swinginess PJ speaks of

[Herodotus]

Couldn't you just swap "2 Werewolves" for "Vigilante" (in example 1 "Kickass Vigilante" and in example 2 "Crappy Vigilante") and make the same argument?

1. Then the town is winning based on good play, even if the vig deserves most* of the credit.
2. The town wins with only townies and a vig left.


* yes, most; not all.

[ReaperCharlie]

I <3 multiscum group games. I prefer being scum rather than being town and if I am scum I get the best of both worlds as I can hunt the other informed minority. Much fun. I have also enjoyed being town in multiscum games whether I knew there were multiple scum groups in the game at its start or not. So I have no problem with this, I can't recall a time where I got screwed by the swinginess PJ speaks of

I agree with this. I was going to say it before, but I decided to come up with some flippant answer, and that didn't really express my thoughts at all. So I apologize.

I disagree with the OP. Multi-scum games are much more fun, and much more challenging. There's more strategy involved (and DIFFERENT strategy involved), and it's NOT all about probability like the OP is making it seem.

Multi-scum = WIN
Single-scum = no

[ReaperCharlie]

Also, make this thread a poll, PJ.

Multiscum. Yes or No?

Yes [___________________________] 98% (49 votes)
No! [_] 2% (1 vote) <- PJ

[CSL]

I like multiscum games, when I mod them. And since I don't play anymore, except for the semi-rare vengeful, that means I'm all for them.

[zoraster]

My two cents: I don't like multimafia games and I tend not to design setups with them. That's not saying that I won't in the future, but I'd have to have a pretty good reason to do so. For example, the only time I've had a multimafia game was in Teleportation Mafia where the two mafias started in different subgames. In that game, it had a definite purpose to it and the game was totally open.

Closed multimafia games tend to bug me.

[Mr. Flay]

Accounting for opposing groups and the possibility of crosskills adds an extra layer of skill to scum play though. Plus, multifaction games have a tendency to inherently re-balance against whoever is 'winning' at a given time, which keeps games interesting (scumgroups which have lost members are less likely to be crosskilled, town lynches make crosskills more likely because the scum form a greater proportion of the player pool).

This.

[Silver1337]

TBH I think that Multiple Scum groups are a good idea... provided that there's at least 30 players, which happens very rarely.

[petroleumjelly]

Accounting for opposing groups and the possibility of crosskills adds an extra layer of skill to scum play though. Plus, multifaction games have a tendency to inherently re-balance against whoever is 'winning' at a given time, which keeps games interesting (scumgroups which have lost members are less likely to be crosskilled, town lynches make crosskills more likely because the scum form a greater proportion of the player pool).

This.

Funny you bring this up, because I actually find this another strike against multiple scum groups. "Self-Balancing" as the game continues actually does

not

help "balance."

For example:

Example Three

Day One

: Lynch Townie A

Night One

: Mafia Kills Townie B, Werewolves Kill Townie C

Day Two

: Lynch Townie D

Night Two

: Mafia kills Werewolf, Werewolves kill Townie E

Now; the Town's winning chances (although presumably low) have increased because of something the Town did not do. If a game starts off balanced as 33/33/33 and Team A screws up (i.e. Town mislynches), the percentages should logically favor Teams B and C. But a "self-correcting" game basically tries to keep the percentages at 33/33/33 until the bitter end. And this does not truly reward good play, nor does it truly punish bad play. It basically makes the end of the game far more important than the beginning of the game.

Overall, the "added layers" for multiple scum-groups are antithetical to what playing Mafia is all about. When people explain Mafia games, it is "uninformed majority" v. "informed minority" with each group trying to eliminate the other; because that's what Mafia

is.

Once you start trying to get informed minorities to also eliminate

other

informed minorities, and you force the Town to "lynch in the right order" when dealing with informed minorities, you are changing the face of the game.

Mafia should not be a game where you can pull off a win by pitting two groups against themselves while getting them to ignore you. That's something boardgames can do, primarily those that are trading / political (like Diplomacy, Risk, Dune, Settlers). But boardgames generally do not have an element of "hidden identities" -- you already

know

who and what you are up against, and so you can take that into account. And even those boardgames that

do

have "hidden identities" are always, in my experience, split up into two groups (essentially, Traitors v Heroes).

Multiple scum groups try to do

too much

with what Mafia is all about. It forces "tactical considerations" that should not really play a part in what is basically a "party game Whodunnit" murder-mystery game. If you can find the scum and get them lynched, Town should win; if scum can convince the Town that

they

are Town and as a result get Townspeople lynched, the scum should win. Letting groups win for other reasons (i.e. "Ha! Sure you lynched scum, but you didn't lynch the RIGHT scum!" and "Hey, thanks for nightkilling that scum for us, scum!") just does not sit with me as being in the spirit of Mafia.

Additionally, multiscum games have a natural tendency towards Kingmaking situations; if one party is essentially doomed to failure, why should they get to choose who wins? Along this line, once you add a second scum team to the mix, then when I am scum, I suddenly have to choose what team I want to benefit with my own nightkill; do I kill a Townie because he might screw over my scumteam and help the other scumteam (while they are free to kill me), or do I kill the other scumteam, thereby helping the Town, because I know I can't win in the end until the other scumteam is eliminated? That simply does not strike me as a consideration that should truly play a part in a Mafia game.