Fakeclaiming for Dummies

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
The Fonz
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 9014
Joined: April 2, 2007
Location: UK

Fakeclaiming for Dummies

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:30 am

Post by The Fonz »

FONZ ON FAKECLAIMING


I've noticed that there's an awful lot of theory discussion on how to play as town, but very little on scumplay. And I think this is a particularly useful subject for discussion. Most of the 'easy' town wins I've seen could have been close, if even one scum had fakeclaimed competently. So, here goes...

1. READ THE RULES...

and don't contradict them. An obvious one, but one that catches a few new/careless scum players. In Choose Carefully Mafia, SocioPath claimed a scumgroup-specific cop, when Bird1111's rules made clear that power roles had to choose which scumgroup to target. Sometimes rulesets will also include things like the total number of power roles, or the order for action resolution.

2. KNOW THE GAMESTATE

Make sure you're clear on how many nights there have been, and who else has claimed what. Fit your claim around it. If you an RB has died, you can claim to have been RBed while he was still alive. If there's a claimed watcher, don't claim to have targeted his watchee. You have a tradeoff to make here- if you fit your claim entirely around publically available information, it's likely to look fake- but you don't want to give the town too much setup info here either.


3. KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE

If you're the last scum, it doesn't matter if you're being lynched today or tomorrow. You hve to survive to endgame, so your claim should be geared to allowing that. Weak investigative, or blocking, roles are probably best.

On other occasions, delaying your lynch even one day can make a huge difference. In Mafia 58- Ready Salted Mafia, I was tracked performing the scum's nightkill, but managed to wriggle out of the lynch by claiming to be a Watcher who had seen a townie do it. The townie got lynched, I was able to nightkill the cop that night, and instead of an easy town victory, my buddy Battle Mage got to endgame, and would have won had the townie he was pushing not gotten modkilled. One-shot claims, or claims that can be 'tested' that night, are useful for this.

4. KNOW YOUR CLAIM INSIDE OUT

Make sure you know what the flavour justification is for your ability. Make sure you know EXACTLY how it's supposed to work. If the role you're claiming has night actions, ensure that you can come up with a town-sounding justification for each choice. Oh, and claim the correct rolename- for example, it's 'Psychiatrist' not 'Psychologist,' 'Forensic Cop' not 'Forensic Scientist' and so on.


5. KNOW YOUR MOD

Different mods have different role preferences. Mr Stoofer, for instance, would never include a Paranoid Gun Owner in his games, so claiming one would likely get you caught out. Many other mods have a strong dislike of the cop + doc combination. If you're claiming cop, do some research as to whether the mod has any history of using variant sanities.

6. MANAGE YOUR SAFECLAIMS

If you have several, discuss with your partners which names seem suited to which fake roles. If you have fewer safeclaims than group members, you need to think about when to use the safeclaim. On the one hand, scum players claiming later have more information, so are likely to be able to come up with a better claim. On the other hand, if one of you comes up with a terrible claim, then town are likely to conclude that you don't have any... which will make life a lot easier for your buddy down the road.

7. GAMBITS CAN BE EFFECTIVE

But you shouldn't be trying them if there's no need. Weigh the risk and the reward If you think you are likely to be today's lynch, then claiming an incriminating investigation on an innocent at the start of the day can put you one mislynch better off than you would otherwise be. If you're in a town that is shy to policy-lynch, then claiming miller day one can be a great way to neutralise the threat of a cop. Just don't do it if the town includes me or Xyl. Deliberately nokilling to set up a doc or roleblocker claim can work, though you need to balance the risk of leaving that additional townie alive.

8. BE UNPREDICTABLE

In Pirates vs Ninjas, TheStatusQuo as town was able to see through Guardian's fake tracker claim easily, because 'Guardian always claims tracker when scum.' For obvious reasons, letting town get this kind of read on you is a bad idea.

9. AVOID 'HUGELY CONVENIENT' CLAIMS

Some claims have just lost all credibility. In particular, Super Saint and Bulletproof. If you claim SS, then town will just try to get another suspect to hammer you.

10. LIE THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM POSSIBLE

The more different lies you employ, the more chance you have of being called on one of them. Keep it simple.

11. KNOW YOUR OWN ROLE

If you're a scum roleblocker or doc, then your ability is trackable. This can lend credibility to power role claims.

12. FIT YOUR BEHAVIOUR TO YOUR CLAIM

One of the best examples I've seen of this was LlamaFluff in Mafia 50- Mafia.gif. Setting up a psychiatrist claim, LF seemed to fixate on the SK far more than seemed rational given the game state, and this was a big part of why I bought his claim. If you're claiming cop, and you attacked a player early on then changed your mind, an innocent investigation overnight will seem very plausible. If you're claiming doc, then a player who you've been saying is town all game makes sense as a protectee. If you're claiming RB, the perfect target is someone of whom you've expressed suspicion, and who's claimed vanilla.
User avatar
PokerFace
PokerFace
Too Useful
User avatar
User avatar
PokerFace
Too Useful
Too Useful
Posts: 6231
Joined: July 20, 2007
Location: Ohio, USA

Post Post #1 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:43 am

Post by PokerFace »

8. BE UNPREDICTABLE

In Pirates vs Ninjas, TheStatusQuo as town was able to see through Guardian's fake tracker claim easily, because 'Guardian always claims tracker when scum.' For obvious reasons, letting town get this kind of read on you is a bad idea.
TSQ was not town in that game. He was pirate scm replaced by RogueBan

Fake claiming is cool and can be effective with your points as scum. I'll give more of my own fake claiming as scum thoughts later.

Fake claiming as town has also these rules: Never do it with the intent to ruin the game. In order to play well you must always pursue your win condition so you must not injure your side with this claim. Understand that in refusing to injure your side you must make sure you are the only one who suffers for the claim should you be exposed. Understand there are 'rare' cases where faking as town will succeed and benefit your side or what remain should you soon die. It can barely be called an absolute last resort as town.
When I joined this site, I was a software tester for mobile business applications and the song PokerFace was not yet written by Lady Gaga
Now I test lottery and gambling software as my job. It's funny how my life has turned out. Somewhere a Time Traveler is laughing madly
User avatar
The Fonz
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 9014
Joined: April 2, 2007
Location: UK

Post Post #2 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:55 am

Post by The Fonz »

Meh. I'm not talking about doing it as town. You should never* do it as town.
User avatar
PokerFace
PokerFace
Too Useful
User avatar
User avatar
PokerFace
Too Useful
Too Useful
Posts: 6231
Joined: July 20, 2007
Location: Ohio, USA

Post Post #3 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:07 am

Post by PokerFace »

The Fonz wrote:Meh. I'm not talking about doing it as town. You should never* do it as town.
Yes unless you are stupid or very skilled, it should not be tried as town.

As scum use it and abuse it to get the job done whenever necessary. This tool is exceptionable useful on IRC as scum.
When I joined this site, I was a software tester for mobile business applications and the song PokerFace was not yet written by Lady Gaga
Now I test lottery and gambling software as my job. It's funny how my life has turned out. Somewhere a Time Traveler is laughing madly
User avatar
The Fonz
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 9014
Joined: April 2, 2007
Location: UK

Post Post #4 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:08 am

Post by The Fonz »

Well, yes.

Because IRC is more about who knows the bot and the various roles best than about scumhunting.
User avatar
PokerFace
PokerFace
Too Useful
User avatar
User avatar
PokerFace
Too Useful
Too Useful
Posts: 6231
Joined: July 20, 2007
Location: Ohio, USA

Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:10 am

Post by PokerFace »

The Fonz wrote:Well, yes.

Because IRC is more about who knows the bot and the various roles best than about scumhunting.
Your point is valid but there is still a descent amount of scumhunting that goes on so its all good and not just massclaim for the win everytime
When I joined this site, I was a software tester for mobile business applications and the song PokerFace was not yet written by Lady Gaga
Now I test lottery and gambling software as my job. It's funny how my life has turned out. Somewhere a Time Traveler is laughing madly
User avatar
Shanba
Shanba
So win
User avatar
User avatar
Shanba
So win
So win
Posts: 4072
Joined: January 3, 2007
Location: Up a Tree

Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:07 am

Post by Shanba »

IRC works best when everyone knows the bot equally well. You have to accept a few losses for not knowing the bot before you can move on to proper games, which is probably a failing in the meta, but once you get through that obstacle it's the best place I've found yet to play chat mafia. Scumchat doesn't compare because we don't actually play chat mafia there.

This is slightly off-topic, but I've often wondered if the lack of discussion about scum play is because players don't want others to know how they approach playing as scum. I seriously considered setting up a thread discussing scumplay, recently, where I would encourage people to post as alts if they weren't certain that discussing it wouldn't hurt their meta.

On number 9, you're slightly wrong about the SS. It's not that it's lost credibility, it's that the best play in (almost) all circumstances is to have someone hammer the ss anyway, so it's like claiming lynchproof or something - town are going to want to lynch you more because of that claim, to test it.

Other than that, this is an excellent list.
(10:50:24 PM) xcaykex: GODDAMNIT I DONT WANNA GET RID OF MY TENTACLE RAPE PORN

Ribbit.
User avatar
animorpherv1
animorpherv1
Honey Trap
User avatar
User avatar
animorpherv1
Honey Trap
Honey Trap
Posts: 5763
Joined: April 12, 2008
Location: Untraveled Road

Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:55 am

Post by animorpherv1 »

I lasted 2 days on sheer luck from claimiing cop in Kindergarten Mafgia on another site. The luck was the fact the cop didn't claim untill the next day, and the next day suffered from confusion
"Animorpherv1's posts are so powerful that prolonged exposure may cause vertigo, nausea, acute tinnitus, and in rare cases, death." - vonflare

"Ani is right 100% of the time" - Alisae
User avatar
Thok
Thok
Disgrace to SKs everywhere
User avatar
User avatar
Thok
Disgrace to SKs everywhere
Disgrace to SKs everywhere
Posts: 7013
Joined: March 28, 2005

Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:33 am

Post by Thok »

You seem to be missing the obvious "Don't be afraid to claim Vanilla Townie."

Yes, it's a mostly worthless claim if you're being run up day 1 in a game with lots of power role. But it's a powerful claim at lynch or lose in a game with few power roles and where most people aren't suspicious of you.

It's also missing the "Don't get run up day 1, so you don't have to waste claiming power early" comment.
I replaced into Chess Mafia for 6 months, and all I got was a win and this lousy sig.
User avatar
MafiaSSK
MafiaSSK
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
MafiaSSK
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 5338
Joined: November 25, 2007
Location: Washington, D.C.

Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:34 pm

Post by MafiaSSK »

Fonz, do you want this added to the wiki?
Call me "SSK, or "ssk". Mafia is my father.
User avatar
LlamaFluff
LlamaFluff
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
LlamaFluff
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 9561
Joined: May 3, 2008
Location: California

Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

The Fonz wrote:2. KNOW THE GAMESTATE

12. FIT YOUR BEHAVIOUR TO YOUR CLAIM
These are the two biggies. In most games I have a couple options I have lined up for myself for possible fake claims, and if I need one, I can asses the situation at hand, and then pull up either the investigative, protective, obscure etc one.

One thing I have found to though is I like directing fakeclaims at a particular town player or two and making it so they have a high chance of believing it. If you know one player seems to be much more likely to believe a investigative claim, its an easy sway as compared to trying something risky.

If you get ran up day one though you are basically screwed either way, so go nuts.
Co-host of The USL Show
GeoGuessr: USL Pony
Fall Guys: Scary Hopping Bonkus
User avatar
Adel
Adel
Crystalline Logick
User avatar
User avatar
Adel
Crystalline Logick
Crystalline Logick
Posts: 6743
Joined: May 23, 2007
Location: Central Oregon / High Desert

Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:46 pm

Post by Adel »

Thok wrote:You seem to be missing the obvious "Don't be afraid to claim Vanilla Townie."
In normal games, fake-claiming is high risk & high reward. Claiming Vanilla Townie is low risk and low reward. The latter is almost always the optimal choice.

If I can offer a piece of advice for scum, pick your potential fakeclaim (or two) long before you actually claim. Tailor your play to your desired claim. That way there will be dots for town players to connect and conclude that you are telling the truth.

If some of them figure out what role you are emulating before you claim it, you just won.
User avatar
Claus
Claus
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Claus
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1734
Joined: June 1, 2007
Location: Tsukuba

Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:17 pm

Post by Claus »

I'd add "survivor" to the list of hugely convenient claims. At least for me, a survivor claim is a sure-kill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVVmAG0RXmo
User avatar
Thestatusquo
Thestatusquo
He/Him
Shea

User avatar
User avatar
Thestatusquo
He/Him
Shea

Shea

Posts: 14371
Joined: July 27, 2006
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Chicago!

Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:36 pm

Post by Thestatusquo »

PokerFace wrote:
8. BE UNPREDICTABLE

In Pirates vs Ninjas, TheStatusQuo as town was able to see through Guardian's fake tracker claim easily, because 'Guardian always claims tracker when scum.' For obvious reasons, letting town get this kind of read on you is a bad idea.
TSQ was not town in that game. He was pirate scm replaced by RogueBan

Fake claiming is cool and can be effective with your points as scum. I'll give more of my own fake claiming as scum thoughts later.

Fake claiming as town has also these rules: Never do it with the intent to ruin the game. In order to play well you must always pursue your win condition so you must not injure your side with this claim. Understand that in refusing to injure your side you must make sure you are the only one who suffers for the claim should you be exposed. Understand there are 'rare' cases where faking as town will succeed and benefit your side or what remain should you soon die. It can barely be called an absolute last resort as town.
Doesn't change a damn thing, really, what alignment I was.

The point is Guardian went through a period of time (3-4 games as scum) where he claimed tracker EVERY SINGLE TIME. I wasn't on his scum team, or anything. All my attacks on him were genuine.

Actually, I think the biggest problem with that claim was your second point. Know the game state. The biggest reason I was sure the claim was BS was because we already had a dead ninja finder. This strongly implied that there was at least a pirate finder as well, and knowing stoofer, probably blanks. Vanilla tracker made absolutely zero sense considering what we already knew about the game, and the roles it was likely to contain.
tout comprendre c'est tout pardonner
User avatar
Zindaras
Zindaras
Mr(s) Popularity
User avatar
User avatar
Zindaras
Mr(s) Popularity
Mr(s) Popularity
Posts: 4343
Joined: April 13, 2006
Location: The Netherlands

Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:11 pm

Post by Zindaras »

I think all of these rules are good. In my opinion, 10 and 12 are the most important. If I see a claim that I distrust in the least bit, I'm pretty likely to go back through the thread and see if it's consistent with earlier behaviour. When I'm scum, I usually start working on a fake claim immediately. The best example from my own experience would be the first California Trilogy game, where I set up an Abbé Faria claim, with good flavour, by hunting for a good fake claim right from the start. I'm not sure if it deserves its own rule, but "If you are only thinking of a fake claim when you're forced to claim, you've already lost."

Rule 10 is a very good rule. I'd add "claim your own role, if possible". Especially in the case of confirmable effects, that's very nice. Funnily, I've had two message-sender roles as scum (in Artifacts and in Packrats Mafia), and both times, claiming my actual role was all I had to do.

I would understand that people are not particularly eager to give up their tactics. It's the same with tells: everybody hates putting his tells out there.
Show
Finished: 159 (120 Town, 33 Mafia, 5 Other, 1 Cult, 4 Cultivated)
68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
Cult: 0 Wins, 1 Loss
Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
59 Survived, 31 Lynched, 60 Killed
User avatar
The Fonz
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 9014
Joined: April 2, 2007
Location: UK

Post Post #15 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:28 am

Post by The Fonz »

Meh, perhaps I'm less worried because i haven't had a scum role yet in '09.
User avatar
Zindaras
Zindaras
Mr(s) Popularity
User avatar
User avatar
Zindaras
Mr(s) Popularity
Mr(s) Popularity
Posts: 4343
Joined: April 13, 2006
Location: The Netherlands

Post Post #16 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:07 am

Post by Zindaras »

I'm not worried either. I barely play anymore, and if I do, I follow rule 8 very strictly.
Show
Finished: 159 (120 Town, 33 Mafia, 5 Other, 1 Cult, 4 Cultivated)
68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
Cult: 0 Wins, 1 Loss
Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
59 Survived, 31 Lynched, 60 Killed
User avatar
Yosarian2
Yosarian2
(shrug)
User avatar
User avatar
Yosarian2
(shrug)
(shrug)
Posts: 16394
Joined: March 28, 2005
Location: New Jersey

Post Post #17 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:12 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

13. Very often the best claim is not to claim. This is true regardless of your alignment or role.

On a side note, lol at your signature, Zindy; I remember that AIM conversation. :)
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
User avatar
Zindaras
Zindaras
Mr(s) Popularity
User avatar
User avatar
Zindaras
Mr(s) Popularity
Mr(s) Popularity
Posts: 4343
Joined: April 13, 2006
Location: The Netherlands

Post Post #18 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:44 am

Post by Zindaras »

Yosarian2 wrote:13. Very often the best claim is not to claim. This is true regardless of your alignment or role.
This is definitely true. Overeager claims always look scummy to me, and you should definitely think a lot before claiming as town. It also hits on a very nice duality: you want to model your behaviour to fit your claim. However, you also want to keep your options open. Investigations can throw a wrench into the most carefully crafted claim, so make sure that you're not putting all your eggs in one basket.
On a side note, lol at your signature, Zindy; I remember that AIM conversation. :)
Hehe. It was a very funny convo indeed. I sigged another quote elsewhere because it's hilarious if ripped out of context:

[21:20] ArtherDent: Would it help if we put Zindy in the core of the earth and then turned him into energy?
Show
Finished: 159 (120 Town, 33 Mafia, 5 Other, 1 Cult, 4 Cultivated)
68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
Cult: 0 Wins, 1 Loss
Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
59 Survived, 31 Lynched, 60 Killed
User avatar
Thok
Thok
Disgrace to SKs everywhere
User avatar
User avatar
Thok
Disgrace to SKs everywhere
Disgrace to SKs everywhere
Posts: 7013
Joined: March 28, 2005

Post Post #19 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:36 pm

Post by Thok »

Thestatusquo wrote:The point is Guardian went through a period of time (3-4 games as scum) where he claimed tracker EVERY SINGLE TIME. I wasn't on his scum team, or anything. All my attacks on him were genuine.

Actually, I think the biggest problem with that claim was your second point. Know the game state. The biggest reason I was sure the claim was BS was because we already had a dead ninja finder. This strongly implied that there was at least a pirate finder as well, and knowing stoofer, probably blanks. Vanilla tracker made absolutely zero sense considering what we already knew about the game, and the roles it was likely to contain.
Guardian also ran into the issue that he managed to claim in such a way that two people basically knew he was scum already because he didn't match the way their claims worked (both me and Twomz were characters from the same book with roles that actually matched the set up in ways that guardian's role didn't.)

Granted, I was already trying to run up Guardian anyways because he was obvscum before he was anywhere close to claiming and Twomz used an investigation on Guardian anyways because of the bad claim.
I replaced into Chess Mafia for 6 months, and all I got was a win and this lousy sig.
User avatar
Oman
Oman
NK Immune Miller Vig
User avatar
User avatar
Oman
NK Immune Miller Vig
NK Immune Miller Vig
Posts: 7014
Joined: June 19, 2007

Post Post #20 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:11 pm

Post by Oman »

Do not claim stupid roles that don't exist.

i.e. NightKill Immune Miller Vig
It's unfortunate that good oral sex excuses bad chemistry. - Korts
User avatar
Drench
Drench
he/him
crucial waukesha voter
User avatar
User avatar
Drench
he/him
crucial waukesha voter
crucial waukesha voter
Posts: 1834
Joined: September 25, 2008
Pronoun: he/him
Location: crucial waukesha county

Post Post #21 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:26 pm

Post by Drench »

Oman wrote:Do not claim stupid roles that don't exist.

i.e. NightKill Immune Miller Vig
BAMPEG, k?
join your union
User avatar
Yosarian2
Yosarian2
(shrug)
User avatar
User avatar
Yosarian2
(shrug)
(shrug)
Posts: 16394
Joined: March 28, 2005
Location: New Jersey

Post Post #22 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:29 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Oman wrote:Do not claim stupid roles that don't exist.

i.e. NightKill Immune Miller Vig
Lol

Or, to put it another way; despite what Zindy said about claiming your own role, if you're the SK, you shouldn't actually claim SK.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
User avatar
Oman
Oman
NK Immune Miller Vig
User avatar
User avatar
Oman
NK Immune Miller Vig
NK Immune Miller Vig
Posts: 7014
Joined: June 19, 2007

Post Post #23 (ISO) » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:05 am

Post by Oman »

Yosarian2 wrote:
Oman wrote:Do not claim stupid roles that don't exist.

i.e. NightKill Immune Miller Vig
Lol

Or, to put it another way; despite what Zindy said about claiming your own role, if you're the SK, you shouldn't actually claim SK.
JUST CLAIM VIG, IT'S SIMPLE!!!
It's unfortunate that good oral sex excuses bad chemistry. - Korts
User avatar
The Fonz
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 9014
Joined: April 2, 2007
Location: UK

Post Post #24 (ISO) » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:30 am

Post by The Fonz »

No. Really, really don't.

Return to “Mafia Discussion”