I think my theme is actually running directly contrary yours - I did my research, tried to do well at this game, and people still treat me like a VI instead of trying to actually help me get better. It's very frustrating being left out to dry/lynched just because you didn't spontaneously develop hax scumhunting skills and you admit that you aren't the best player around.Vi wrote:It's nice to see a recurring theme in these posts, especially when I made one of them.
Maybe people will get the hint.
The I don't play anymore thread
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SFG Goon
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The textwaller of d00m- Vi
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Vi Professor Paragon
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May I have a link to an example?SFG wrote:
I think my theme is actually running directly contrary yours - I did my research, tried to do well at this game, and people still treat me like a VI instead of trying to actually help me get better. It's very frustrating being left out to dry/lynched just because you didn't spontaneously develop hax scumhunting skills and you admit that you aren't the best player around.Vi wrote:It's nice to see a recurring theme in these posts, especially when I made one of them.
Maybe people will get the hint.Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.- shaft.ed
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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Yeah I barely play anymore and the only reason I'll consider a game is a once in a lifetime player list.Ojanen wrote:Vetting the playerlist is essential. If enough of them are good players, it's likely you'll have fun by teaming up/mindstorming with at least a couple of them. 1 bad case of idiotism plus 2-3 milder cases of VI rarely suffices to destroy the game, a couple of VIs often help with creating initial scatterplots of reactions. Form a band of obvtown and have fun steamrolling/PoEing through the rest.
Careful with non-invitational larges (especially themes) - hardest game type to find that isn't dominated by mindless yelling/a too large percentage of VIs starting or replacing in.- Kmd4390
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Kmd4390 I lost a bet.
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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SFG wrote:one of those "almost-unwinnable-for-town" games and I was in overdrive the entire game trying to fight that only to watch it all fall apart the moment I got nightkilled. Now I feel like the hard work I normally put into games is pretty damn useless, completely demoralized. I probably WILL come back eventually, maybe in late December or so around my 1-year.
These actually apply, I just didn't want to post this. It's just really difficult to put any significant effort in when there's a decent chance it won't affect the outcome.The Fonz wrote:every time I feel like this, I just think of one or two of the VIs I've been subjected to over the course of my time here, think 'Do I really want to put myself through this' with regard to the process of ascertaining which of the four people in an average game who appear to be trying to ruin it IS trying to ruin it, which is scum, and which ones are just so dense they don't know any better
This sounds like it would mostly apply to bad players. :VSFG wrote:you guys on this site are unforgiving and scary and that doesn't help
And do what?Vi wrote:Maybe people will get the hint.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford- Vi
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Vi Professor Paragon
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Elmo wrote:
And do what?Vi wrote:Maybe people will get the hint.wait what I just like telling people they're horrible
Well, it should curtail the currentpopularityof being viewed as a bad player.
It should also be a sign that maybe people should follow what I've been saying for a while now - learn to look Town, and learn how to scumhunt. The first step in newbies' ascension to competent players is the realization that what they think works usuallydoesn't, and the commonly-held belief that looking Town is something you only need to "turn on" when you feel you need to is frankly toxic to overall gameplay.
Once those are realized by a not-insignificant portion of the regular playerbase, maybe people will stop talking about mafiascum like it plays at cesspool-level. I know people talk like that offsite, but whenrespected players onsiteare saying it there's decidedly a problem.
Noitalicstags were severely overworked in the creation of this post.Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.- boberz
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boberz Mafia Scum
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ZeroFang Goon
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There's a recent influx of players (all spring/summer 2010) that are very VI-ish. I used to be a common VI myself until I grew out of it, but the difference is that I tried to improve and did. I've modified almost everything about how I played the game in order to be a better player. A lot of these newer players in my generation don't, and refuse to change. They're the type of players to vote hop, not write cases, OMGUS vote, lurk, generally be idiots, and at the end of the day wonder what the hell they did that was so scummy. There are even a couple players that advertise themselves as VIs as if they're proud of it. I believe this is the cancer on MS JDodge is talking about, and yes, it's very frustrating when you can't get a read on half the players in the game because all they've done is voted a couple times and said "LOL y u voted me".Mr. Flay wrote:I flat don't believe that the site is "dumb" right now.- SFG
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The best example I can think of off the top of my head involves an ongoing game. I guess I'll go with an example from my second game around hereabouts where basically I was accused of being scum for every possible course of action I could take without really being told why any of them were particularly scummy. Actually this post from that game is a pretty accurate statement of how I've been feeling as well.Vi wrote:
May I have a link to an example?SFG wrote:I think my theme is actually running directly contrary yours - I did my research, tried to do well at this game, and people still treat me like a VI instead of trying to actually help me get better. It's very frustrating being left out to dry/lynched just because you didn't spontaneously develop hax scumhunting skills and you admit that you aren't the best player around.
*waits for you to come down on my ass telling me its my fault for being a bad player or whatever*The textwaller of d00m- Vi
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Vi Professor Paragon
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You are a bad player and people should reflexively disagree with anything you say just based on who's saying it. You should loudly claim that you are a horrible person here and on every other forum you are on, and should never allow yourself to procreate because your kids will be ugly.SFG wrote:*waits for you to come down on my ass telling me its my fault for being a bad player or whatever*
Now that I've told you what you expected to hear, I'll start telling the truth.~ People, esp. Townies, can be passionate, willing to demonize their targets, and wrong. You have to be able to work through that and stand up for what you believe and what you say. Truthfully, I didn't actually see anything particularly inflammatory up to post 499 (with heavy skimming). So people misread you or disagree with what you're saying. They're looking for scum too. That they happen to be looking in your direction, right or wrong, is not a crime. As long as everyone's willing to apologize and make up in the end, there's no real foul and everyone tries to do better in the future.Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.- TheButtonmen
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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I don't really understand how can expect someone could help you get better, especially in game (hell I'd probably try to lynch anyone who started trying to teach in game).SFG wrote:
I think my theme is actually running directly contrary yours - I did my research, tried to do well at this game, and people still treat me like a VI instead of trying to actually help me get better. It's very frustrating being left out to dry/lynched just because you didn't spontaneously develop hax scumhunting skills and you admit that you aren't the best player around.Vi wrote:It's nice to see a recurring theme in these posts, especially when I made one of them.
Maybe people will get the hint.
I'm seeing faaaaaaar to many people who understand their style is scummy / bad, understand why / how it's deficent and make no change to it, instead they just talk about how it's their meta as though that solves everything.Vi wrote:As long as everyone's willing to apologize and make up in the end, there's no real foul and everyone tries to do better in the future.
This both confuses and annoys me.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up- Vi
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Vi Professor Paragon
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This is why using Mafia as a tool of social engineering is both fun and rewarding even if you don't win as often.TheButtonmen wrote:
I'm seeing faaaaaaar to many people who understand their style is scummy / bad, understand why / how it's deficent and make no change to it, instead they just talk about how it's their meta as though that solves everything.Vi wrote:As long as everyone's willing to apologize and make up in the end, there's no real foul and everyone tries to do better in the future.
This both confuses and annoys me.
Though I can pull up a game where the "The side with the fewest VIs wins" philosophy actually worked for Town.Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.- Friend
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Friend Mafia Scum
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Look, I dislike VIs. A whole lot. But we can't just make them "go away," and it's nigh-impossible to make them change. So I've started just trying to figure out how to read them, and if I decide they're town, they're just another bandwagon vote. If they're scum, they get lynched.
Now, you have another problem with the Fate-style CAPS RAGE PLAYERS. It works, if it's used it good hands. But sometimes, things start getting personal, and when someone is RAGING like that at you it's very hard to keep your cool, even as town. And that leads to OMGUS attacks and just a general sense of frustration about the game.- TheButtonmen
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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It's safe to say I don't have a problem with the LEFT SHIFT AGGRESSION players, my issue is with players who acknowledge that they are playing in a terrible VI manner and then refuse to change their style but instead hide behind meta to defend themselves.
VI's on their own are fine, we were all newbs once (hell I still have plenty of flaws in my own style), to me the main issue is that they tend to join 4+ games then pay only the slightest attention to each rather then playing less games less fucktardedly.
Imo the VI issue won't go away until game caps are lowered.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up- Friend
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Friend Mafia Scum
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I completely agree. There's one *cough* unnamed VI I know *cough* that joined basically like 12 fucking games and then played completely shittily in each. It's becoming a sitewide problem - to the point where I really don't want to play an any newbie games anymore.TBM wrote:to me the main issue is that they tend to join 4+ games then pay only the slightest attention to each rather then playing less games less fucktardedly.- Looker
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Looker theStenographer
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Nikanor Jack of All Trades
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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I on the other hand am still bitter about them.Nikanor wrote:I love the /in-vitationals.Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up- Mr. Flay
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Mr. Flay Metatron
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No it's not. You lynch them. You call them out. You make their life HELL while they don't change, and they either change or leave. We did this for YEARS on this site, with relatively few VIs. Then we got some critical mass of VIs at some point thatFriend wrote: it's nigh-impossible to make them change.banded together, and now they defend each other with meta, and it's like a VI Masonry that you can't effectively kill. That. Needs. To. Stop.
meta does not change the odds. Sometimes the VI is scum, and needs to be lynched. Sometimes the VI is town, and scum will never NK them. So you're left with a bunch of VIs and scum at endgame... what do you THINK is going to happen?
Admirable, but it requires special effort on the part of you, not the VI. That's not an adaptive strategy.So I've started just trying to figure out how to read them, and if I decide they're town, they're just another bandwagon vote. If they're scum, they get lynched.Retired as of October 2014.- SFG
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SFG Goon
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I guess I've gotten half-used to the wonders of IRC mafia where, after every game, you can ask what you did that was so scummy and they'll tell you, and even better, for your first few games there's someone out-of-game helping you figure out mechanics and how to properly scumhunt and, almost as importantly, translating all of the acronyms and jargon into plain old English for you.
Is there any way forum games could allow a younger player to consult with an older player during a game?The textwaller of d00m- TheButtonmen
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TheButtonmen Buns of Steel
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Ectomancer Mafia Scum
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Lost my old job, so I had to quit for a bit. Found a new one at Microsoft, so I'm ready to get back into the old excitegravation that is Mafia. I'll be finding a mini-normal, as I believe that as much as VI's contribute to an unsatisfactory game, mods who believe that "the more roles the better" or that it is their personal mission in life to punish the town for X behavior (follow the cop, trusting masons, etc) contribute just as much, and in many ways are the enablers for said VI's.
I'm going to wait a couple days to hit the queue. If anyone wants to find a game together, PM me and we'll figure out what works.I have a degree in bullshit. I have patents on entire lines of bullshit. So don't sit here and feed me a line of bullshit and think that I'm not going to recognize it as one.
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