The I don't play anymore thread

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
Ellibereth
Deus ex Machina
 
User avatar
Joined: November 06, 2009
Location: Location location location

Post Post #125  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:59 am

I think that at least 90% or so of the people considered VI's are easy to read once you see them as each alignment...the first few times are a little bit confusing but then it becomes a lot easier...

Ecto wrote:mods who believe that "the more roles the better" or that it is their personal mission in life to punish the town for X behavior (follow the cop, trusting masons, etc) contribute just as much, and in many ways are the enablers for said VI's.

I'M SORRY ECTO.

EDIT: The 10% or so that doesn't apply to is the "LURK-THROUGH-WHOLE-GAME" type, of whom just need to die.
FLASH OF GREEN

mykonian
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
 
User avatar
Joined: August 28, 2008
Pronoun: He

Post Post #126  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:42 pm

Friend wrote:It's bad, Flay, but when people put things like "The VI has arived" [sic] in their signatures, they're not going to change, and policy lynching them is just another probable mislynch if you're playing the odds.


Normal lynches have a certain accuracy, which we hope is better then a random lynch.
VI's are a distraction and the chance that their vote later in the game will help lynch scum is pretty much the same as a random vote. That this is terrible for town can be seen for example in lylo. Because of this, VI's will lower the expectancy value of lynches to come.

conclusion: if the person is stupid enough, or the town good enough, policy lynching is the best way to win.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.

Ectomancer
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: January 05, 2007
Location: Middle of the road

Post Post #127  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:31 pm

mykonian wrote:
Friend wrote:It's bad, Flay, but when people put things like "The VI has arived" [sic] in their signatures, they're not going to change, and policy lynching them is just another probable mislynch if you're playing the odds.


Normal lynches have a certain accuracy, which we hope is better then a random lynch.
VI's are a distraction and the chance that their vote later in the game will help lynch scum is pretty much the same as a random vote. That this is terrible for town can be seen for example in lylo. Because of this, VI's will lower the expectancy value of lynches to come.

conclusion: if the person is stupid enough, or the town good enough, policy lynching is the best way to win.


This is the main problem with allowing VI's to live. VI's do not need the opportunity to decide the game. They are worse than random lynches. Kill them early while the numbers game isn't so bad. Day 1 people.
I have a degree in bullshit. I have patents on entire lines of bullshit. So don't sit here and feed me a line of bullshit and think that I'm not going to recognize it as one.

This unsupported statement brought to you by the Anti-Supported Statement League of the United States and Territories (ASSLUST)

Ectomancer
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: January 05, 2007
Location: Middle of the road

Post Post #128  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:32 pm

Haha, wasn't you Elli :) Just talking my own personal preferences really. I only play a theme game when I'm prepared to lose regardless of how well I played.
I have a degree in bullshit. I have patents on entire lines of bullshit. So don't sit here and feed me a line of bullshit and think that I'm not going to recognize it as one.

This unsupported statement brought to you by the Anti-Supported Statement League of the United States and Territories (ASSLUST)

Vi
Professor Paragon
 
User avatar
Joined: June 29, 2008
Location: GMT-5

Post Post #129  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:38 pm

Ectomancer wrote:I only play a theme game when I'm prepared to lose regardless of how well I played.
Fixed to fit my philosophy. >_>
Decisions have consequences.
ALL decisions have consequences.
YOUR decisions have consequences.

RichardGHP
Parama's Alt
 
User avatar
Joined: December 21, 2009
Location: New Zealand
Pronoun: He

Post Post #130  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:42 pm

Ectomancer wrote:
mykonian wrote:
Friend wrote:It's bad, Flay, but when people put things like "The VI has arived" [sic] in their signatures, they're not going to change, and policy lynching them is just another probable mislynch if you're playing the odds.


Normal lynches have a certain accuracy, which we hope is better then a random lynch.
VI's are a distraction and the chance that their vote later in the game will help lynch scum is pretty much the same as a random vote. That this is terrible for town can be seen for example in lylo. Because of this, VI's will lower the expectancy value of lynches to come.

conclusion: if the person is stupid enough, or the town good enough, policy lynching is the best way to win.


This is the main problem with allowing VI's to live. VI's do not need the opportunity to decide the game. They are worse than random lynches. Kill them early while the numbers game isn't so bad. Day 1 people.


This makes me want to cry tears of... something, but not joy. Lynching them on Day 1, especially with no actual discussion, will not improve their play. Essentially you're saying that being a VI once gets you permanantly blacklisted from living past Day 2 or so. If people actually quit their whinging, and taught VIs what /not/ to do, then we wouldn't be having this problem or conversation.

TheButtonmen
Buns of Steel
 
User avatar
Joined: November 17, 2009
Location: Cayke

Post Post #131  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:46 pm

If you want some kind of educational aspect why not simply play newbies?

Joining a mini normal / theme then bitching that people aren't teaching you is quite simply dumb.
Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up

Elmo
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: September 07, 2007
Location: happy
Pronoun: She

Post Post #132  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:53 pm

RichardGHP wrote:If people actually quit their whinging, and taught VIs what /not/ to do, then we wouldn't be having this problem or conversation.
A good defining characteristic of a VI is that they don't attempt to improve, regardless of outside prompting. They're not just bad players, and they're not just new.

The "lynch all VIs" crew is playing a game of chicken where one side decides by consensus, with the default to swerve, and the other side is almost always driving straight with no regard for their own well-being.
Succinctness is pro-town.

Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford

Nobody Special
It's Midnight Somewhere
 
User avatar
Joined: January 06, 2010
Location: Not here
Pronoun: He

Post Post #133  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:56 pm

RichardGHP wrote:If people actually quit their whinging, and taught VIs what /not/ to do, then we wouldn't be having this problem or conversation.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." ~Robert Heinlein
....what?


Blitz: Picking Simplicity taking pre-ins; PM for info. (0/13)

Fate
:HAPPY:
 
User avatar
Joined: January 24, 2010
Location: Eternity

Post Post #134  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:00 pm

*looks at thread title*

*looks at recent discussion*

SUCCESSFUL DERAILMENT IS SUCCESSFUL.
Fate is absurdly beautiful. 運命に弄ばれる
"Fate you keep alternating between narratives of doing it for fun and doing it for the sake of winning"

Ectomancer
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: January 05, 2007
Location: Middle of the road

Post Post #135  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:02 pm

RichardGHP wrote:
Ectomancer wrote:
mykonian wrote:
Friend wrote:It's bad, Flay, but when people put things like "The VI has arived" [sic] in their signatures, they're not going to change, and policy lynching them is just another probable mislynch if you're playing the odds.


Normal lynches have a certain accuracy, which we hope is better then a random lynch.
VI's are a distraction and the chance that their vote later in the game will help lynch scum is pretty much the same as a random vote. That this is terrible for town can be seen for example in lylo. Because of this, VI's will lower the expectancy value of lynches to come.

conclusion: if the person is stupid enough, or the town good enough, policy lynching is the best way to win.


This is the main problem with allowing VI's to live. VI's do not need the opportunity to decide the game. They are worse than random lynches. Kill them early while the numbers game isn't so bad. Day 1 people.


This makes me want to cry tears of... something, but not joy. Lynching them on Day 1, especially with no actual discussion, will not improve their play. Essentially you're saying that being a VI once gets you permanantly blacklisted from living past Day 2 or so. If people actually quit their whinging, and taught VIs what /not/ to do, then we wouldn't be having this problem or conversation.


You should cry after making this statement. Do you know how long Day 1 is? I've seen it last months and months (and months). When I tell you to straighten up or get lynched, I'm not playing around. If you don't want to listen to me, then you've earned your title of VI and also earned the right to be removed from play Day 1. And yes, I said listen to me. I'm that important. If people listened to me more, they wouldn't be crying about getting lynched for being a VI and Friend wouldn't be crying about the VI's themselves. :P

You also CLEARLY do not understand what a VI even is by this statement here
taught VIs what /not/ to do
.
VI's refuse to be taught. By definition this is what makes them VI's. They don't care what your reasoning might be unless they get lynched repeatedly.. Grow a sack and send them packing and when they come back, they won't be VI's any longer. That LYNCHING is what teaches VI's what not to do.
I have a degree in bullshit. I have patents on entire lines of bullshit. So don't sit here and feed me a line of bullshit and think that I'm not going to recognize it as one.

This unsupported statement brought to you by the Anti-Supported Statement League of the United States and Territories (ASSLUST)

Ojanen
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: March 20, 2009
Location: Germany
Pronoun: She

Post Post #136  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:08 pm

RichardGHP wrote:If people actually quit their whinging, and taught VIs what /not/ to do, then we wouldn't be having this problem or conversation.

There's no list.
The VI stops being one to me the minute he/she actually cares about the game. All the problems (having little consciousness about what has happened/the rules, paying no attention to anything, not being able to listen, saying obv stuuuuupid things, playing against your wincon) are solved by a just little effort, like checking the thread back if your memory sucks, making a tiny effort to think whether your idea is obvstupid before posting it. I used to really like replacing in newbie games. I have no problem with raw players. That's a different beast to not caring, playing idiotic. Someone who doesn't care has minimal intentions, and that's incredibly frustrating to read.

SFG
Goon
 
User avatar
Joined: December 07, 2009
Pronoun: She

Post Post #137  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:03 pm

TheButtonmen wrote:If you want some kind of educational aspect why not simply play newbies?

Joining a mini normal / theme then bitching that people aren't teaching you is quite simply dumb.


In case you didn't notice, those posts were from a Newbie game. In fact, I played two Newbie games, learned a decent amount from the first because Troll took it upon himself to educate me a little bit, which was nice until he lynched me, and learned nothing from the second game. Then I moved on to opens because newbies were sucking my soul out and worked my heart out playing a 2:2:8 where the scum never crosskilled the entire fucking game. I may have learned a little bit from that game, but most of what I learned is that hard work doesn't really make that much of a difference. Now I'm in my /in-vitational, which I joined in hopes that if I played with people I am friends with or have a great deal of respect for, they'd actually help me learn something.
The textwaller of d00m

TheButtonmen
Buns of Steel
 
User avatar
Joined: November 17, 2009
Location: Cayke

Post Post #138  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:18 pm

A) Either play newbies or don't bitch that players aren't teaching you.

B) You learned the entirely wrong lesson then, if at first you don't succeed give up if a fairly awful way to go about learning.

Have you ever considered teaching yourself?
Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up

Vi
Professor Paragon
 
User avatar
Joined: June 29, 2008
Location: GMT-5

Post Post #139  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:24 pm

SFG wrote:Then I moved on to opens because newbies were sucking my soul out and worked my heart out playing a 2:2:8 where the scum never crosskilled the entire fucking game.
Was I in that game, or is that a more common experience than advertised?

Anyway SFG, if you're interested in one of the hydra things people have been mentioning ITT I may be able to help out.
Unpleasant side effects may include anxiety, dying early on, and having to deal with me on a fairly regular basis.

A) Either play newbies or don't bitch that players aren't teaching you.
Newbie games teach you the basics of how to play and not completely flop (like don't randomly vote in LyLo, don't claim scum D1, and so forth).
They don't teach you how to find scum.
also
The Road to Rome is basically the gutter to catch first-time scummers who are more likely to flake or do completely clueless moves.
Decisions have consequences.
ALL decisions have consequences.
YOUR decisions have consequences.

mykonian
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
 
User avatar
Joined: August 28, 2008
Pronoun: He

Post Post #140  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:58 pm

Ojanen wrote:
RichardGHP wrote:If people actually quit their whinging, and taught VIs what /not/ to do, then we wouldn't be having this problem or conversation.

There's no list.
The VI stops being one to me the minute he/she actually cares about the game. All the problems (having little consciousness about what has happened/the rules, paying no attention to anything, not being able to listen, saying obv stuuuuupid things, playing against your wincon) are solved by a just little effort, like checking the thread back if your memory sucks, making a tiny effort to think whether your idea is obvstupid before posting it. I used to really like replacing in newbie games. I have no problem with raw players. That's a different beast to not caring, playing idiotic. Someone who doesn't care has minimal intentions, and that's incredibly frustrating to read.



With this knowledge (that a person who doesn't want to improve is annoying) something can be done.

As a mod, you have the responsibility of creating a fun game for your players. You serve them, post counts for them, and let them play the game they want. If they want a powerrole invested game with 2 cops and 2 godfathers, you'll give it to them if you are a good mod. If they want no PR's, the same. If they don't want to play with VI's, you'll make sure no VI's enter.

And mods have been given a tool for this. A mod can decide if a certain player can /in. Now if multiple players are known that they don't want to play with a certain VI, a good mod should stop that VI from entering the game. If more mods followed such a policy, you'd have games where no VI's where in, and you'd games where VI's were accepted. Disallowing certain players from joining your game based on the players that have already joined is not unfair. It is good modding, as it makes sure everybody enjoy's their games here more.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.

Mr. Flay
Metatron
 
User avatar
Joined: March 12, 2004
Location: Gormenghast
Pronoun: He

Post Post #141  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:48 pm

Ojanen wrote:
RichardGHP wrote:If people actually quit their whinging, and taught VIs what /not/ to do, then we wouldn't be having this problem or conversation.

There's no list.
The VI stops being one to me the minute he/she actually cares about the game.

This. VIs can avoid being lynched. If they keep playing like a VI, they will (should) keep getting lynched. If they stop playing like a VI and start playing like somebody with three brain cells to rub together, they won't get lynched. It's really that simple, Richard.

I've yet to see a game with a VI where somebody DIDN'T offer them constructive advice, even if it's in the form of "if you don't start X/stop Y, I'm going to vote you, I swear". This site has an immense amount of patience, but this thread has shown several examples of it running thin.
Retired as of October 2014.

SFG
Goon
 
User avatar
Joined: December 07, 2009
Pronoun: She

Post Post #142  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:19 pm

TheButtonmen wrote:A) Either play newbies or don't bitch that players aren't teaching you.

In case you hadn't noticed, half of my games were newbies and in those games I came across exactly 1 (one) player who actually taught me anything. That'd be Zorblag and I already credited him.

Have you ever considered teaching yourself?

I've done the necessary research on the wiki if that's what you mean. Read all of those pages about being town and jeep's tells and even shook the horrible off-site meta I had that any player who had some control of the town should be lynched ASAP. If you mean, have I tried playing mafia by myself, I have not, as I think that would be an exercise in transparency.

Vi wrote:Anyway SFG, if you're interested in one of the hydra things people have been mentioning ITT I may be able to help out.
Unpleasant side effects may include anxiety, dying early on, and having to deal with me on a fairly regular basis.

I would be honored if you would hydra-mentor me. It might take a bit to get started though, because I don't play in more than one game at once and I'm currently in an ongoing mini at Day 3 (/in 7).
The textwaller of d00m

TheButtonmen
Buns of Steel
 
User avatar
Joined: November 17, 2009
Location: Cayke

Post Post #143  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:28 pm

SFG wrote:
Have you ever considered teaching yourself?

I've done the necessary research on the wiki if that's what you mean. Read all of those pages about being town and jeep's tells and even shook the horrible off-site meta I had that any player who had some control of the town should be lynched ASAP. If you mean, have I tried playing mafia by myself, I have not, as I think that would be an exercise in transparency.


-Shrug- I can't comment on the effectiveness of the wiki as a teaching tool as I've never used it in that capacity. What I was referring to was something more along the lines of;

Step 1: Reread your own games, see what you feel works and what doesn't.
Step 2: Find a player who's style you want to emulate and read some of their games, note what you can borrow from them.
Step 3: Use what you learned from step 2 and apply it to step 1.
Step 4: Play another game or three.
Step 5: See Step 1.

Rinse and repeat for as long as your on MS.

Imo it's good to vary up the players your reading, by that I mean if cycle one you read a gut heavy player then cycle two read one who's more of a number cruncher.
Routine day with a dirt cheap brush
Then a week goes by and it goes untouched
Then two, then three, then a month
Then the rest of your life, you beat yourself up

ZeroFang
Goon
 
User avatar
Joined: June 08, 2010
Location: St. Louis
Pronoun: He

Post Post #144  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:41 pm

TheButtonmen wrote:Have you ever considered teaching yourself?
Vi wrote:The Road to Rome is basically the gutter to catch first-time scummers who are more likely to flake or do completely clueless moves.

This actually gives me an idea...

What if we had another newbie-esk forum that wasn't a filter at all, but was actually devoted to learning about mafia theory? TBM's method works for self learners, but sometimes you just can't figure out on your own what you did wrong or what you could have done better. Most people aren't objective enough about themselves to do that. Perhaps we could have a training forum for people dedicated to learning how to be a better player?

Mr. Flay
Metatron
 
User avatar
Joined: March 12, 2004
Location: Gormenghast
Pronoun: He

Post Post #145  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:47 pm

I've never seen people refuse to explain what you did 'wrong' after the game (and really, most people will explain why they're lynching/copping you in-game). Of course, that's a little slower...
Retired as of October 2014.

Mr. Flay
Metatron
 
User avatar
Joined: March 12, 2004
Location: Gormenghast
Pronoun: He

Post Post #146  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:02 pm

Also, dug up from the archives: Nuker Club.
Retired as of October 2014.

CSL
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: August 02, 2009
Location: Mitakihara

Post Post #147  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:53 am

TheButtonmen wrote:
Nikanor wrote:I love the /in-vitationals.

I on the other hand am still bitter about them.


I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that it's my fault that your so bitter about them.

I blame hohum entirely for that. I've already discussed with Fate.
Show

Ectomancer
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: January 05, 2007
Location: Middle of the road

Post Post #148  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:17 am

SFG wrote:I would be honored if you would hydra-mentor me. It might take a bit to get started though, because I don't play in more than one game at once and I'm currently in an ongoing mini at Day 3 (/in 7).


I only play in one game at a time now, but I credit immersion with my early burst of learning. I believe that I was up to 8 games at one time. I don't recommend that many for most people unless you get the addiction and are online 12 hours a day, waiting like a vulture over those games to pounce on the next post :oops: Still, I think that two would be a healthy number to work with. It also helps you contrast in real time the reactions of people to you. Vi as a mentor should be a positive step. I don't know how he is as a teacher, but if you can adopt even a part of his method you should improve.
Something else I did early on, and later on as well, is decide beforehand how I intend to play a given game. Are you going to be aggressive? passive? make charts? do meta look ups on people? play as if everyone is scum until proven otherwise? play as though everyone is town until proven otherwise?
Stick with the style you chose and see how it works. If it doesn't turn out well, don't get depressed, select a different style and apply it to the next game and see how it does. Keep doing that and along the way you'll get the learning the only real way you can get it. You'll have experience.
I have a degree in bullshit. I have patents on entire lines of bullshit. So don't sit here and feed me a line of bullshit and think that I'm not going to recognize it as one.

This unsupported statement brought to you by the Anti-Supported Statement League of the United States and Territories (ASSLUST)

Vi
Professor Paragon
 
User avatar
Joined: June 29, 2008
Location: GMT-5

Post Post #149  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:06 am

SFG wrote:
Vi wrote:Anyway SFG, if you're interested in one of the hydra things people have been mentioning ITT I may be able to help out.
Unpleasant side effects may include anxiety, dying early on, and having to deal with me on a fairly regular basis.

I would be honored if you would hydra-mentor me. It might take a bit to get started though, because I don't play in more than one game at once and I'm currently in an ongoing mini at Day 3 (/in 7).
Well, whenever you're ready.

What if we had another newbie-esk forum that wasn't a filter at all, but was actually devoted to learning about mafia theory?
We can make it accessible from the main page... A simple name for it would be "Mafia Discussion". :shifty:

Still, I think that two would be a healthy number to work with. It also helps you contrast in real time the reactions of people to you.
It's weird to be in one game as scum and one game as Town simultaneously. But that's the interesting part of it.
Decisions have consequences.
ALL decisions have consequences.
YOUR decisions have consequences.

PreviousNext
[ + ]

Return to Mafia Discussion