#2: a treatise on the random voting stage

[Pie_is_good]

RVS has become too random though. I have read far too many games where a player gets asked about their vote and their defense is that it was random so doesn't need reasoning.

...which is scummy. I'd be up for serious voting that person.

Pie, I presume several others have already squawked at you about this, do you still deny that the information for scum is greater? I hate individual players who powerclaim D1, it's reckless, and it's more often than not unnecessary.

Hi! You must be new here.

[yabbaguy]

Hi! You must be new here.

11 months is new? /:|

[Pie_is_good]

I think it would be not an overstatement to say I am the biggest proponent of massclaim on this site, and I frequently lobby for it on day 1 of small games. Yes, I deny that info for scum is greater, and I also deny that powerclaiming day 1 is a bad thing.

[Lord Gurgi]

Not to completely derail this thread, but massclaim is problematic for scum because they need to come up with a fakeclaim with minimal information about the setup and then hope it stands up later. It's equivalent to expecting townies to pick the scum on page one and have them stick with it. These days, power roles are becoming more unreliable and more populous, so it makes more sense now than it did when pie was pushing massclaim originally.

I have had games without a RVS at all. I've had games where they seem to last forever. The former is preferable. That said, I think the current game has more serious problems than the RVS that need resolution (namely, the One True Path).

[The Quintastic One]

The problem is, how does one start serious lines of questioning right out of the gate, without looking scummy in the process?

Example:

Person A, who doesn't want to do RVS, instead opts to start serious questions. But with a lack of a target or in need of clarification on a particular post, Person A is stuck with very little options. They can either discuss Mafia Theory right off the bat, or ask arbitrary questions regarding what a person's favorite role is, how they scumhunt, ect. ect. Neither of these work, since discussing Mafia Theory with no basis for it gets ridiculed as posting fluff in order to seem active, and thus you are scum. Or you ask questions of the latter and it seems like you're looking for players specific motives and tactics so that you can hide better as scum by diverting their scumhunting strategies, and thus will still be called out as scummy.

At least with RVS, you are free to start conversation light heartedly and with a friendly disposition, which helps the overall mood the game as well as helps to build community and patience with our fellow members.

If you just start out every game where the first post is jumped all over for any scumtell you can find, just because you have nothing else to go off of, that actually discourages activity. Since if you can't have a stage where you can at least joke around, introduce yourself or just shoot the shit before things get inevitably serious, then what's the fun in playing the game? This isn't a super serious ultra competitive must win situation every game. The point is to have fun. So if we just start every game with constant unyielding ruthlessly aggressive word by word analysis of even the simplest of posts, then you discourage people from wanting to play the game since they can't say anything at all without being called out as scum.

Hence why I like the RVS stage. It gives me a safety net to get a feel for the other players and lets me feel comfortable with the atmosphere of the game so that I'm not afraid to speak my mind later when it counts.

[The Fonz]

Hi! You must be new here.

11 months is new? /:|

There've been multiple long threads on this. Basically, it's like this- early massclaim makes it easier for scum to kill off power roles, but harder for scum to fakeclaim. Pie is, and has been for years, known for advocating day one massclaim (he's not really been around for the last nine months, which is why he thinks of you as 'new' while you don't). His position is extreme relative to the consensus, but that doesn't mean it's wrong in itself. Search massclaim and his name on google, and you'll find the arguments. Read 'em for yourself, decide who you think makes more sense.

[animorpherv1]

<snip>
If you just start out every game where the first post is jumped all over for any scumtell you can find
<snip>

*cough* kmd4390 *cough*

[Vi]

If you just start out every game where the first post is jumped all over for any scumtell you can find, just because you have nothing else to go off of, that actually discourages activity. Since if you can't have a stage where you can at least joke around, introduce yourself or just shoot the shit before things get inevitably serious, then what's the fun in playing the game? This isn't a super serious ultra competitive must win situation every game. The point is to have fun. So if we just start every game with constant unyielding ruthlessly aggressive word by word analysis of even the simplest of posts, then you discourage people from wanting to play the game since they can't say anything at all without being called out as scum.

The fun

is

to constantly unyieldingly ruthlessly aggressively tear peoples' posts apart.
Plus first posts can be quite telling of alignment - SensFan is one player who ardently supports this; Pesco47 is infamous offsite for "First Post Mind H4x", where he (accurately) pegs scum based on putting peoples' introductory posts through causation analysis.

[Yosarian2]

I also agree with how RVS silliness is fun but really counterproductive. Making silly votes to be silly just clouds an already cloudy stage of the game. Then again, it is a decent scumtell...

Early game silliness can be a surprisingly effective way to find scum (I hate the phrase "random voting stage"; random votes are fine, but there's no such thing as a "random voting stage").

I disagree with Glork about how artificial it is to say there's a "clear division" between RVS and serious business. If you random vote after nonrandom discussion has already started, you're effectively ignoring it... why?

That's a reasonable question to ask someone in a game. Could be that they think the "serious" discussion people are having is not a productive one, or at least that it's less productive then random voting would be.

Probably my biggest gripe about the early game is how people say "oh you, it's only the RVS, don't get worked up".

Ah, now THOSE people are scum.

In the early part of the game, be silly, be random, be bizzare, vote people for no reason; it's all can be more pro-town then doing nothing, which is often your only other option. But just because everyone is being silly or bizzare or random, it dosn't mean some of them are not dropping scumtells.

[The Quintastic One]

If you just start out every game where the first post is jumped all over for any scumtell you can find, just because you have nothing else to go off of, that actually discourages activity. Since if you can't have a stage where you can at least joke around, introduce yourself or just shoot the shit before things get inevitably serious, then what's the fun in playing the game? This isn't a super serious ultra competitive must win situation every game. The point is to have fun. So if we just start every game with constant unyielding ruthlessly aggressive word by word analysis of even the simplest of posts, then you discourage people from wanting to play the game since they can't say anything at all without being called out as scum.

The fun

is

to constantly unyieldingly ruthlessly aggressively tear peoples' posts apart.
Plus first posts can be quite telling of alignment - SensFan is one player who ardently supports this; Pesco47 is infamous offsite for "First Post Mind H4x", where he (accurately) pegs scum based on putting peoples' introductory posts through causation analysis.

I disagree. Because it's no fun feeling like you can't post because no matter what you say, it's going to be scrutinized. That's what the RVS is for in my mind. It helps create an air of welcome and communion rather than a ruthless roundtable of skepticism. That way, I feel more comfortable later on in the game even under scrutiny. If I were playing a game where I was immediately called scummy right out of the gate simply because I said "Hi, hope we all have a good game" then I would probably replace out, as I don't want to deal with that kind of pressure.

But this is just my opinion after all. I support the RVS stage, and it seems obvious a majority of the members here do not. But I still don't think any drastic measures need to be taken place in order to get rid of random voting altogether.

[mykonian]

The problem is, how does one start serious lines of questioning right out of the gate, without looking scummy in the process?

Example:

Person A, who doesn't want to do RVS, instead opts to start serious questions. But with a lack of a target or in need of clarification on a particular post, Person A is stuck with very little options. They can either discuss Mafia Theory right off the bat, or ask arbitrary questions regarding what a person's favorite role is, how they scumhunt, ect. ect. Neither of these work,

since discussing Mafia Theory with no basis for it gets ridiculed as posting fluff in order to seem active, and thus you are scum.

Or you ask questions of the latter and it seems like you're looking for players specific motives and tactics

so that you can hide better as scum by diverting their scumhunting strategies, and thus will still be called out as scummy.

Be like us, or you are scum.

I hate the RVS. One reason is I almost never come out of it without half of the game suspecting me. Meaning that I have tried quite a few tactics to try to skip it entirely: and you are right, there is almost no way to do this without half of the town suspecting you.

Just look at the bolded above. Since when is random voting better then posting fluff? Both times you are close to doing nothing. The second reason why question would be bad is even worse, although it is seen in games. Why is random voting protown? Questions have a much bigger potential, IMO.

You take the easy way. Be like them, and you'll have an easy start. In fact, you are just active lurking. Make a post that does what the town wants from you, wait a bit until a target is found, and then start scumhunting: you are trying to survive that phase, rather then finding scum, or said in another way:

you are playing like you would if you were scum

[Yosarian2]

There's nothing wrong with discussing mafia theory or stratagy, or with asking people questions, at any point in the game, especlaly not in the start.

Now, if you're doing that and never scumhunt at all, that's bad, but otherwise, it's generally a mildly pro-town thing to do.

[Vi]

Because it's no fun feeling like you can't post because no matter what you say, it's going to be scrutinized.

This isn't the game for you, then.

[Glork]

Because it's no fun feeling like you can't post because no matter what you say, it's going to be scrutinized.

This isn't the game for you, then.

Have to agree here. Forum Mafia is in every essence a game of scrutiny.