Explicitly Normal/non-Normal Roles

[zoraster]

But there's a compelling reason to keep the cop sanity secret. It actually changes the role upon death otherwise. In other words, why, upon death, should people find out MORE information about a role than that person had to begin with?

(full disclosure: I've told of sanity upon death in a normal game where he didn't know originally: Mafia 105)

Again, I think the comparison to cop sanity is pretty far off the mark. Superficially similar, but when you analyze it, quite different.

[Yosarian2]

I am surprised by the amount of bizzare and generally ab-Normal rules that made it into most people's Normal listing.

If I made the rules, I would allow the following roles in a Normal game;

• Townie
  
• Cop (sane only)
  
• Tracker
  
• Watcher
  
• Doctor
  
• Roleblocker
  
• Vigilante
  
• Serial Killer (NK Immune or not)
  
• Mafia Goon
  
• Mafia Roleblocker
  
• Mafia Godfather

Because that's not a normal closed game. That's a normal semi-open game, and a pretty narrow one at that. There's nothing wrong with semi open games, but we don't need or want to get rid of all closed normal games on the site.

[Yosarian2]

Well, you do usually get the cop's sanity on death, though I know Yos dislikes this. What you don't get is 'Might have been a cop, might have been a roleblocker.'

I've almost never seen that. And yeah, I dislike it; it gives the town extra information for killing the cop, which just seems silly. "We'll lynch the cop today, and if he flips sane, then we have enough information to autowin in the next two days" should never be the right move for the town, IMHO.

[Max]

Again, I think the comparison to cop sanity is pretty far off the mark. Superficially similar, but when you analyze it, quite different.

Eh, really?

The Mason is just a pre-determined target Cop. The purpose is to reduce swing. The neighbour is a pre-determined target Cop.

Well, you do usually get the cop's sanity on death, though I know Yos dislikes this. What you don't get is 'Might have been a cop, might have been a roleblocker.'

And

I can see the reasoning, but I'm not sure I agree it should be in a normal game. Having the primary purpose of wanting to hide something on the flip seems non-normal on its face.

No, that isn't at all what I'm suggesting. It is unusual for a Mafia Godfather not to be announced as:

Blah, Investigation Immune Godfather, Killed Day 2

And it is equally unusual for a kill immune godfather to be revealed as such.

That is presumably normal? Hiding things in a role PM is acceptable. You don't learn who the Mason was paired with. You don't learn the scum partners. You don't discover cop sanities (in *most*) games.

"gee. was he a confirmed sanity cop we're just not being told or was he an unconfirmed sanity cop?" we do it because we want to continue the thought of "gee. was he sane? insane? naive? paranoid?"

Generally confirmed sane cops would claim that. Why can't we continue the idea:

"Gee. Is that mason group confirmed, unconfirmed or one sided confirmed?"

Would scum masons be considered normal 2 years ago? Yes
What has changed in the past two years? People want to know if masons were confirmed or not
Why should town gain that information? Because they want it...

There's no logical way by searching someone's house they could tell whether they were confirmed masons or not. There is no need for the town to know the information.

[zoraster]

The Mason is just a pre-determined target Cop. The purpose is to reduce swing. The neighbour is a pre-determined target Cop.

That is certainly one of the main effects of the confirmed mason, but I don't think it is conceptually the idea behind a mason. Besides, how is a neighbor a "pre-determined target cop"? If they're not confirmed, he has no investigation ability beyond what he says in a QT. No, I don't think this works.

No, that isn't at all what I'm suggesting. It is unusual for a Mafia Godfather not to be announced as:
Blah, Investigation Immune Godfather, Killed Day 2
And it is equally unusual for a kill immune godfather to be revealed as such.

That is presumably normal? Hiding things in a role PM is acceptable. You don't learn who the Mason was paired with. You don't learn the scum partners. You don't discover cop sanities (in *most*) games.

The investigation immune godfather is a MUCH better analogue than a cop's sanity. No, I don't expect people to post what type of Godfather he is. But the II godfather is distinguishable from this too. The reason you don't reveal whether a godfather is investigation immune or night kill immune is several-fold:
1. You just start to put too much info in a kill flip.
2. The godfather, like an SK (who could be Investigation or NK immune as well), is not town. The "flip" is largely for the town's benefit (not exclusively, but largely). In most cases, town benefits by getting more information rather than less from a flip. A godfather or SK's full role information being divulged further would offer more help to town despite the role itself being anti-town. That's not necessarily the effect you want.
3. The godfather role's history is not primarily one designed to be either or. To some degree, II or NK immune is simply a variation. The idea, at some point, was that the godfather was the leader of the mafia. Powers were added to make him more powerful and to protect him. After time the idea that he's the leader sort of became secondary or even just nominal (as it is in my games) but the purpose was simply that he was provided extra protection. A godfather that flips Godfather is telling players that he had some protection.

Compare to Masons who were designed, so far as I know, to mutually clear players. Not all masons could night talk, for example. The fact that Masons COULD or couldn't night talk didn't need to be something that was posted in a flip because that wasn't really the primary purpose of the role. Once you made those partners unconfirmed, you divorced the role from the original purpose and created an entirely different role.

All that said, I think it'd be perfectly reasonable at this point if II Godfather and NK Godfather were separated into different roles or if we just said Godfather in a normal game is always Investigation Immune (I believe this is the most commonly occurring type) and NK Godfather is just a Bulletproof role.

Generally confirmed sane cops would claim that. Why can't we continue the idea:

"Gee. Is that mason group confirmed, unconfirmed or one sided confirmed?"

Would scum masons be considered normal 2 years ago? Yes
What has changed in the past two years? People want to know if masons were confirmed or not
Why should town gain that information? Because they want it...

There's no logical way by searching someone's house they could tell whether they were confirmed masons or not. There is no need for the town to know the information.

I was not aware our standard of what we included in a flip was whether we could find it in their house. That's not even a standard I've heard. How would people know someone is the vigilante versus a cop? A mafia is a roleblocker?

[Max]

Well it's the gaming logic I use. Unless you use an unusual theme this game is set in a village/city/a place where people live. A cop would have a badge normally. Something along those lines (or maybe his uniform). Then a vigilante would have a gun with no signs of criminal activity beyond that. Mafiates would have drugs.
The original name for a mafia roleblocker was either "Prostitute" or "Pimp" and both of those would leave signs behind in the house (think dominatrix).
A jailkeeper presumably has lots of chains and a room that can only be locked from the inside.
The mason group you could find a letter from them.
Cult you could find the religious stuff.
A vanilla townie has a boring house.
The cowardly reporter would have lots of newpaper articles plastered on the walls.
The paranoid gun owner would have masses of booby traps at the entrance etc.

If they're not confirmed, he has no investigation ability beyond what he says in a QT. No, I don't think this works.

Eh... yes. That's the point of mafia, using what people say to determine if they are a member of the mafia or not. It's a predetermined cop-target except they're doing the investigating themselves.

3. The godfather role's history is not primarily one designed to be either or. To some degree, II or NK immune is simply a variation. The idea, at some point, was that the godfather was the leader of the mafia. Powers were added to make him more powerful and to protect him. After time the idea that he's the leader sort of became secondary or even just nominal (as it is in my games) but the purpose was simply that he was provided extra protection. A godfather that flips Godfather is telling players that he had some protection.

I was under the impression the original godfathers were created to be investigation immune. Thematically they called them the godfather (for their manipulation of the law etc.) and therefore they logical had to be give the most power. I believe it's on the Princeton mafia site as investigation immune.

Compare to Masons who were designed, so far as I know, to mutually clear players. Not all masons could night talk, for example. The fact that Masons COULD or couldn't night talk didn't need to be something that was posted in a flip because that wasn't really the primary purpose of the role. Once you made those partners unconfirmed, you divorced the role from the original purpose and created an entirely different role.

I thought we were discussing the potential for a third role where you don't know if people were confirmed, and whether that would be considered normal.

[The Fonz]

Well, you do usually get the cop's sanity on death, though I know Yos dislikes this. What you don't get is 'Might have been a cop, might have been a roleblocker.'

I've almost never seen that. And yeah, I dislike it; it gives the town extra information for killing the cop, which just seems silly. "We'll lynch the cop today, and if he flips sane, then we have enough information to autowin in the next two days" should never be the right move for the town, IMHO.

I've seen it plenty, and i've seen the 'Let's lynch the claimed cop to find out his sanity' argument, too.

[Yosarian2]

All that said, I think it'd be perfectly reasonable at this point if II Godfather and NK Godfather were separated into different roles or if we just said Godfather in a normal game is always Investigation Immune (I believe this is the most commonly occurring type) and NK Godfather is just a Bulletproof role.

Ugh. Why?

I really don't get the point of any of what you guys are trying to do here at all. Is normal really so complicated that we want to simplify it so as to not confuse the newbies or something?

[Ether]

Fonz is in some weeeeeeeeeeeeird normal games.

[Max]

Yos, I think it's not to confuse the mods... There are a few extreme cases where something evidently isn't normal and shouldn't be in a game. I think making it so only Investigating, Manipulative, Killing and Voting roles *was* enough to ensure games were normal.

[Leafsnail]

I think you could tell the difference. Masons would have some weird robes and a book of secret handshakes and codes and stuff. Neighbours would just have a telephone or something.

[Ythan]

I think the idea with neighbors is that they can talk because they're neighbors. They don't need phones.

[The Fonz]

Yos, I think it's not to confuse the mods... There are a few extreme cases where something evidently isn't normal and shouldn't be in a game. I think making it so only Investigating, Manipulative, Killing and Voting roles *was* enough to ensure games were normal.

*Cough* Protective.

But yeah, basically. So long as the roles revolve around those mechanics.

[StrangerCoug]

No, that isn't at all what I'm suggesting. It is unusual for a Mafia Godfather not to be announced as:

Blah, Investigation Immune Godfather, Killed Day 2

And it is equally unusual for a kill immune godfather to be revealed as such.

Apparently, most people do godfathers close to the opposite way I do. I don't reveal a godfather's investigation immunity because I believe it to be understood that he has it, but I usually do reveal kill immunities. For me to flip someone as the "Mafia night-kill immune godfather" therefore implies that he has both immunities.

[Max]

*Cough* Protective.

But yeah, basically. So long as the roles revolve around those mechanics.

That manipulates (nullifies) kills. In the same way roleblockers manipulate all roles they target.

It's just so the role roleblocker can exist under that set as that is a normal role.

I think the idea with neighbors is that they can talk because they're neighbors. They don't need phones.

Simplistically yes, but as everyone lives next to someone (even in detached housing). Maybe their phone log of most recent calls gives it away.

[animorpherv1]

Max, you just gave me an idea for a New role.

Private Investigator (can chek someone's phone records to see who he/she has "called"*. Does not learn what the conversation was about)

* called = talked in QT with

[Yosarian2]

Apparently, most people do godfathers close to the opposite way I do. I don't reveal a godfather's investigation immunity because I believe it to be understood that he has it, but I usually do reveal kill immunities. For me to flip someone as the "Mafia night-kill immune godfather" therefore implies that he has both immunities.

It's not understood, at all. A godfather can have investigative immunity, NK immunity, both, or neither.

I usually tell the godfather what he has in his role PM, but don't reveal it when he dies. (It's more interesting that way; I mean, heck, a really gutsy scum could claim cop and claim an innocent on his own godfather or something and have a chance at getting away with it if he just flips godfather.) Some mods don't tell the godfather any specifics about what they're immune to, becuase they don't want them to game the system.

[Leafsnail]

I think the idea with neighbors is that they can talk because they're neighbors. They don't need phones.

That makes things even more problematic from a flavour POV though.

Eh, doesn't matter.

[nhammen]

Godfathers: I haven't used one yet, but if/when I do, I already have my modding system set up so that when it dies, I would tell everyone which immunities it had.

Flavor: doesn't matter. Bringing it in to the discussion serves no purpose.

[reinoe]

I think the voyeur role I made up is normal, as would be its tracker counterpart (Mr. Flay called that a "stalker" in the thread I made after I conceived the voyeur).

I agree with StrangerCoug here.

[zoraster]

New year. Entirely new normal roles.