Change to Open Game Queue (split from Minis, 12->13)

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Change to Open Game Queue (split from Minis, 12->13)

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:16 pm

Post by zoraster »

Vi wrote:The catch being that if you have an Open setup that's any good, you should be bringing it up to the Open Setup review thread.
That way we'll play your setup instead of these silly 5P Vengeful refugees from the Marathon forum


That reminds me, I need to put the Sliding Scale of Openness on the wiki.
I've always thought the way we do opens is pretty iffy. I understand that open games are far more prone to breaking, but I think it's a shame we don't let mods have any say in the games they select. Even if we didn't allow them to design a game, I'd suggest something like this:

Give a library of game types possible to select from, sort into categories and perhaps sub-categories where games in the same sub-category are very similar to each other and games in the same category are similar at least in style. Say that no game with the same setup as one that has been run in the past 10 games may be run, no game from the same subcategory may be run within 6 games of the last one and no game from the same category may be run within 3 games of the last one (or something like that, the numbers are adjustable). Then let the mod choose the game to run.

Have the open mod, instead of picking games, continually review, add and delete games from the open library (based on when a game is broken or whatever).

I'm not fond of the top-down approach. I think it removes a lot of the investment a mod has with his games, and even though I fully expect every mod to see the game through to the end, when a mod is kind of meh about a game, it shows and it affects the rest of the game. Giving even a little choice helps. I also think that a more natural variety will come up.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:59 pm

Post by Vi »

Well okay I forgot that running your own Open game gives you the luxury of, y'know, running your own Open game.

Having catalogued all the Opens I can safely say that which games are run is prone to fashions. That's not a bad thing with new setups coming out, but there are a lot of setups that haven't been run more than once or twice. My motivation for cataloging the Open setups in the first place stemmed from how I had no way of knowing C9++ had never been run as an Open before, in spite of being a fairly old setup (and run a few times as Themes). Are setups like 7P Vengeful and Friends/Enemies/Enemies/That Other Guy just there to take up space on the wiki, or what?
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

zoroaster's idea really deserves its own thread, but I want to see more discussion about it. Shall I split the thread?
Done!
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:56 pm

Post by zoraster »

Vi wrote:Well okay I forgot that running your own Open game gives you the luxury of, y'know, running your own Open game.

Having catalogued all the Opens I can safely say that which games are run is prone to fashions. That's not a bad thing with new setups coming out, but there are a lot of setups that haven't been run more than once or twice. My motivation for cataloging the Open setups in the first place stemmed from how I had no way of knowing C9++ had never been run as an Open before, in spite of being a fairly old setup (and run a few times as Themes). Are setups like 7P Vengeful and Friends/Enemies/Enemies/That Other Guy just there to take up space on the wiki, or what?
Does it? I was under the impression that all open games were assigned in the open queue.

I think to an extent it will always be prone to fashion. Certain setups are breakable or semi-breakable, and sometimes that takes a few plays (the fewer players involved, the less likely it is to be figured out as semi-broken in the first play).
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:07 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

Someone should ping farside and get her in here. :)
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:58 am

Post by Vi »

@zorro: In short I agree with whatever it is you're saying here. (>")>

Also this post for reference.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:15 am

Post by shaft.ed »

To play devils advocate, I think you'll see a proliferation of vengeful games if this takes place. Many mods are in the Open Queue just to get a prereq out of the way. Vengeful is the quickest way to move on to your MiniTheme mod'ing.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:23 am

Post by zoraster »

Well that's why I put the restrictions on category, subcategory and same setup. That should avoid it being played too much.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:29 am

Post by Vi »

zoraster wrote:Well that's why I put the restrictions on category, subcategory and same setup. That should avoid it being played too much.
This is why I agree with zorro.

Plus 5P Vengeful is already the most-run game by a huge margin anyway.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:32 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Why exactly DOES vengeful appear so often in the open que?

I guess I don't understand how the setups are selected.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:41 am

Post by Vi »

Zachrulez wrote:Why exactly DOES vengeful appear so often in the open que?
Tinfoil hat guess: Because it suits a lot of niche interests--
*Small games for the micro people
*Small games for moving the queue along
*Short games for the marathon people
*Short games for the first-time mods

The major reason I care about it at this point is because it blocks other games from being run and because it's a cheap first game that doesn't resemble any other games onsite. If Vengefuls were "extras" in the queue (i.e. this mod is running a Vengeful AND some other game) that objection would disappear, and the people who are into choosing Opens can sort the rest out.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:51 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Vi wrote:Also this post for reference.
Deserves quoting, in fact:
Vi wrote:5P Vengeful - 25
--
--
--
Bird 7P - 14
--
Lovers Mafia - 12
--
--
--
Two of Four - 8
Friends and Enemies, either 2, 3, or 4 scum/masons - 8
--
Pie E7 - 7
Trendy and Subversive v1 - 7
--
Vanilla Nightless or some variant thereof - 6
Fire and Ice - 6
Polygamist Mafia - 6
--
Varying ratios of Mountainous - 5
Near Vanilla - 5
Crush Nightless - 5
Assassin in the Palace - 5
Jungle Republic - 5
JK9 - 5
--
Carbon-14 - 4
Texas Justice - 4

The New C9 - 4
--
Basic Twelve Player - 3
Masons and Monks - 3
C9 - 3
C9+2 - 3
C/9 - 3
Alternating C9 - 3
Night Watch - 3
Strawberry - 3
Jester Mafia - 3
Mini Love - 3
Trendy and Subversive v3 - 3
--
Quack Mafia - 2
Definite C9 - 2
Big Love - 2
Picking Simplicity - 2
Medical Mafia - 2
Baby Too Much Scum - 2
Mountainous Multiball - 2
Friends and Enemies and Enemies - 2
True Love - 2
Unclean Mafia - 2
Gurgi EC8 - 2
Paris Mafia - 2
Bad Tweed - 2
SCIENCE! - 2
--
Tit for Tat - 1
Hard Boiled - 1
My Name is Earl - 1
Ninja Mafia - 1
Immunity Mafia - 1
Switch Setup - 1
Double Cop - 1
Yoguraimee C9 - 1
Pick Your Poison - 1
Dethy - 1

Twofold Mafia - 1
Two-fold Mafia - 1
Friends and Enemies 2.0 - 1
Quack Multiball - 1
Double Day - 1
Lovers Multiball - 1
Trendy and Subversive v? - 1
Mayo Clinic - 1
Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy - 1
Impotence Mafia - 1
Weak M.D. - 1
Don't Cut the
Red
Wire! - 1

Tread Carefully - 1
Follow the Cop... or Not - 1
Rebels in the Palace - 1
2:10 Bugs Bunny - 1
1-shot C9 - 1
3 of 5 - 1
Strikethroughs added for broken/dead setups.

I think we need some sort of more systematic approach. I'm not criticizing farside, she's got a thankless job of essentially being game reviewer, list mod, AND temperature-taker of what's wanted. I think we could make her job easier AND get a better Queue out of the deal.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:02 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Bugs Bunny was only played once? Wow... that setup actually wasn't that bad.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:52 am

Post by Super Smash Bros. Fan »

Here's an idea: Let the mod create there own set-up instead of having to use someone else's idea. That's the main reason why I will refrain from modding games in the Open Queue.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:25 am

Post by zoraster »

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:Here's an idea: Let the mod create there own set-up instead of having to use someone else's idea. That's the main reason why I will refrain from modding games in the Open Queue.
The difficulty is that the open queue, even more than the mini normal one is full of beginner mods. An open game is very liable to be broken if not fully vetted, even a reviewer is not sufficient. This combination makes it dangerous to just let open mods design their own. That said, if a mod designs one that goes through the normal suggestion process, I'm fine letting her run it.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:27 am

Post by Vi »

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:Here's an idea: Let the mod create there own set-up instead of having to use someone else's idea. That's the main reason why I will refrain from modding games in the Open Queue.
The point of the Open Q (or at least the change that's being proposed) is that you're running someone else's idea
that you like
... which is functionally pretty similar.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:30 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:Here's an idea: Let the mod create there own set-up instead of having to use someone else's idea. That's the main reason why I will refrain from modding games in the Open Queue.
No no no. If you want to run your own setup as a newer mod, use Mini Normal. Open Queue is for tested (or at least vetted) setups that anybody can run safely.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:08 am

Post by yabbaguy »

Million dollar question: It's never been illegal to run semi/open setups outside of Central Park and Road to Rome, right?
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:09 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Right.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:19 am

Post by yabbaguy »

Thought so.

That's reason enough that we shouldn't make Open queue a free-for-all. I think a partial choice might be beneficial in case the mod gets stuck with a bummer, but I think taking it to another queue is ultimately the only way to go at getting your own setup.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:19 am

Post by nhammen »

Wait. 2:2:9 has never been run as an open? I remember reading that after some discussion it was decided that this was the most balanced 2-player-per-scumteam vanilla setup, and it wasn't even run? No... Open 150 ad 209 are 2:2:9, but your list never mentions 2:2:9. Or did you use a different name?
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:22 am

Post by nhammen »

Also, 61, 72, and 137 are listed as mountainous multiball, but you have mountainous multiball as 2.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:24 am

Post by Vi »

yabbaguy wrote:Million dollar question: It's never been illegal to run semi/open setups outside of Central Park and Road to Rome, right?
It hasn't been, although technically what you see in the Open queue is either Open or Variable Open. [/technicality]

@nhammen - "Varying ratios of Mountainous" all got lumped together. I know 2:2:something Mountainous has been run once as an Open.

The typo for Mountainous Multiball was probably just a typo. It was late at night >.> Definitely double-check the list ;>.>
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:34 am

Post by Max »

I think with the twofold mafias the issues are:
- Nobody is certain the correct ratios
- The same set-up hasn't been repeated. We've had 2:2:8, 2:2:8 (with Seperated Cops and Single Doc), 2:2:9. I remember more too.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:38 am

Post by nhammen »

Vi wrote:"Varying ratios of Mountainous" all got lumped together. I know 2:2:something Mountainous has been run once as an Open.

The typo for Mountainous Multiball was probably just a typo. It was late at night >.> Definitely double-check the list ;>.>
Yeah, I just checked, and 2:2:9 has been run twice. I think at least mountainous with 2 scumteams should be separated from mountainous with 1 scumteam. Additionally, mountainous multiball is also known as 2:2:8 mountainous. So those three should also be a "varying ratios of mountainous" under your list. Although that setup isn't used any more because 2:2:9 is said to be more balanced.

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