Why isn't daytalking standard?

[PranaDevil]

Yos, as Flay says, the discussion in the scum thread would make sure it didn't sound the same. If it all sounded the same that would just be people who are playing badly to begin with, and they would be likely to play badly regardless. But it would need the ENTIRE scum team to suck balls for it to happen. If one of them is clever enough to remind them all, then it's not a minor benefit any more, and is instead a massive benefit.

if they even slightly use the daytalk thread to discuss the game as it goes on [then the game] becomes an almost guarenteed win unless one of them really does slip up in game.

This is either trivial because you're going to count any mistake as slipping up in game, or probably false.

Or it's taken as read from a previous game that I was in, in which a scum member slipped up and got himself lynched day 2 by totally botching a name claim. But hey, that's just "any mistake" right?

However, if they even slightly use the daytalk thread to discuss the game as it goes on (and from experience, the majority of scum will discuss things in the thread constantly. In some cases posting more in the scum QT than in the game thread itself), then it doesn't just become "more fun" for them, but becomes an almost guarenteed win unless one of them really does slip up in game.

Ah. So you have little/no experience with Daytalk scumgames, and are speaking from theory. That explains it.

This post = nonsensical.

Players here are better than players that I've played with elsewhere. (In general of course) So if anything, that means that the scum team will be BETTER to co-ordinate things than they would be elsewhere. Which in turn means that the chance of day talk meaning scum win is likely to be even higher here because they will be better at not making things sound alike, or being able to keep posting as they normally do while being coached (If they even need said coaching).

I'm not saying outright no daytalk, but it shouldn't be standard, damned sure shouldn't be in normals, and is likely better in non-night games to keep the game flowing. Especially as otherwise the night phase just becomes a long pause in the game. Hence it works in PYP, but would be terrible in a straight mountainous, and it has to be planned accordingly, to take into account just how powerful daytalk is.

[SensFan]

The post makes complete sense. In practise, daytalk is very much not 'an almost guaranteed win' for Scum. You are claiming it is. Therefore, my deduction that you're speaking from theory, rather than practise.

[PranaDevil]

Except for the fact there have been 10 games completed on another forum, only one of which had no day talk.

Of those nine there have been the following wins:

Town - 4
Scum - 4
Third Party - 1

Now while that visually "looks" balanced. The first three games in that were town wins, when people were struggling on how to play well as scum (and a lot of lynches were based more on disliking the tone of a post rather than actual scum hunting, so more luck based). Then it was Scum, Serial Killer, Town (in a literal fluke first lynch victory in a 5 person mini that didn't last beyond 3 pages), and then it's been scum across the board now they know how to play the game better.

When the only town wins have been more luck based than skill based, and once people start getting skilled, the scum dominate cleanly due to day talk, I would say that's an issue. It's also obvious from the scum threads that said scum don't even need to be all that great to be able to discuss things as they go on.

If scum only discuss at night, they have to hope they're on the same page once day phase hits, and can't discuss why their partners are doing something during the day. Thus putting more skill in planning ahead and setting things up for the following day (something the scum should be doing if they intend to play well). With day talk they can happily discuss what they're doing and what they suggest their partners do in response to keep distancing each other safely and continue pushing other players in thread if they see something come up in the middle of the day.

Basically, daytalk makes it much, much easier for scum to win than only night talk. Which is fact. It doesn't even need much looking at to realize that scum being able to talk to each other constantly is a much bigger advantage than scum only being able to talk to each other for short periods of time.

[Antihero]

Daytalk amplifies the synergy of a scum team. If the scum team works well enough as players to use it, it has been estimated as worth as much as another Mafioso. This is especially true if there is only a single scumgroup.

In that case, the scumteam is probably very skilled and deserves to win anyway.

Can anyone link me to a game where the town was screwed out of a win because the scum had daytalk?

[Vi]

Daytalk amplifies the synergy of a scum team. If the scum team works well enough as players to use it, it has been estimated as worth as much as another Mafioso. This is especially true if there is only a single scumgroup.

In that case, the scumteam is probably very skilled and deserves to win anyway.

Because we love it when games are decided before they begin.

Can anyone link me to a game where the town was screwed out of a win because the scum had daytalk?

Pledge of Allegiance was already linked.

[ReaperCharlie]

"No daytalk" seems like a balancing factor thrown into the system by a mod who didn't know how to properly balance the scum team.

Um... no.

Um... yes.

Not saying it can't also be useful. But this is not RL mafia, there is no need to restrict scum to speaking at night.

And as Yos/Vi said earlier, if it helps skilled players and hurts idiots, why

not

use it? That sounds exactly how it should be.

That's also not what I said. I actually said the opposite with the Tofu Mafia example.

Oh, sorry. I thought that's what you were getting at. If I was wrong and you think no daytalk should be included as a balancing factor to even the playing field, then I was mistaken in my approximation of your position and I apologize.

[ReaperCharlie]

I also agree that daytalk is a huge benefit for a scum team that actually talks to each other. Not a slight one. A huge one.

[Vi]

"No daytalk" seems like a balancing factor thrown into the system by a mod who didn't know how to properly balance the scum team.

Um... no.

Um... yes.

Not saying it can't also be useful. But this is not RL mafia, there is no need to restrict scum to speaking at night.

Let's talk "properly balance" IYO. What would you recommend?

And as Yos/Vi said earlier, if

it helps skilled players and hurts idiots

, why

not

use it? That sounds exactly how it should be.

That's also not what I said. I actually said the opposite with the Tofu Mafia example.

Oh, sorry. I thought that's what you were getting at. If I was wrong and you think no daytalk should be included as a balancing factor to even the playing field, then I was mistaken in my approximation of your position and I apologize.

Underlined is what isn't true. Go back and read the Tofu Mafia post again.

[Yosarian2]

And strangely enough, almost every daytalk thread I've seen relies heavily on feedback to make sure they DON'T all sound the same. We're kind of talking in circles here, Yos... you're starting from an assumption of no effect, and others are starting from an assumption of constant effect.

Oh, not at all. I've been part of a group of daytalking scum, I know it has an effect. I also know that it doesn't have a purely positive effect, and I think the comment that it doesn't require skill or that it leads to a "guaranteed scum victory" is pretty absurd.

Yos, as Flay says, the discussion in the scum thread would make sure it didn't sound the same.

If daytalk has any change on people's posts at all, then that is a chance that can, in theory, be detected, especially by people who know your meta well and who are looking for it (assuming town knows scum can daytalk, which they probably should).

If it dosn't have a change, then it obviously dosn't help at all.

More realistically, daytalk usually does cause a subtle change on a small percentage of someone's posts. That makes it pretty hard to detect, but it also means that the game effects are somewhat limited.

Town - 4
Scum - 4
Third Party - 1

Now while that visually "looks" balanced. The first three games in that were town wins, when people were struggling on how to play well as scum (and a lot of lynches were based more on disliking the tone of a post rather than actual scum hunting, so more luck based). Then it was Scum, Serial Killer, Town (in a literal fluke first lynch victory in a 5 person mini that didn't last beyond 3 pages), and then it's been scum across the board now they know how to play the game better.

That's not much of a sample size. Scum winning 3 games in a row isn't really a sign that there's something fundamentally unwinnable with the game. And if there is, then there are probably other balance concerns.

[PranaDevil]

Yos, as Flay says, the discussion in the scum thread would make sure it didn't sound the same.

If daytalk has any change on people's posts at all, then that is a chance that can, in theory, be detected, especially by people who know your meta well and who are looking for it (assuming town knows scum can daytalk, which they probably should).

If it dosn't have a change, then it obviously dosn't help at all.

More realistically, daytalk usually does cause a subtle change on a small percentage of someone's posts. That makes it pretty hard to detect, but it also means that the game effects are somewhat limited.

Town - 4
Scum - 4
Third Party - 1

Now while that visually "looks" balanced. The first three games in that were town wins, when people were struggling on how to play well as scum (and a lot of lynches were based more on disliking the tone of a post rather than actual scum hunting, so more luck based). Then it was Scum, Serial Killer, Town (in a literal fluke first lynch victory in a 5 person mini that didn't last beyond 3 pages), and then it's been scum across the board now they know how to play the game better.

That's not much of a sample size. Scum winning 3 games in a row isn't really a sign that there's something fundamentally unwinnable with the game. And if there is, then there are probably other balance concerns.

I think you're misunderstanding my meaning about scum discussing things in the thread. The person doesn't need to change their posting style, nor the direction they're pushing, scum can instead plan on the fly how to deal with situations. I'm not saying have the skilled player write the post for them so they all sound alike. Nor am I saying that someone would suddenly do something that's not normal for them (like backing off of someone early when they would never do that in their previous meta), I'm saying that the scum could discuss what is currently going on, in game, at that moment in time, and plan how to best take advantage of it, and how to work it into what they're saying together. That's a massive advantage compared to having to hope your fellow scum see where you're going.

It IS less skillful to play as scum with day talk, because the game is made considerably easier for scum in that instance. You can say that it's "not a large sample size" all you want, but the fact is that town one early on when people were still learning, and by a fluke win, with day talk. As soon as people began to understand the game better, scum have dominated (beyond the one time swiftstrike was the Serial Killer and played a blinder of a game, though I'll admit that game was ridiculous as it had a scum team, a cult AND a Serial Killer).

I'd say likely the only balance concerns about the day talk have been that it wasn't properly factored in how much it affects the games and so balancing around it wasn't considered. Which has shown how much of a factor it is. Day talk could perhaps work with a smaller scum team, which would definitely not be considered normal. If on average you have 25% of the game as scum (2/9, 3/12, 4/16) then you would likely need to lessen the amount of scum, or up the town's power a fair bit to make it work.

[Vi]

And strangely enough, almost every daytalk thread I've seen relies heavily on feedback to make sure they DON'T all sound the same. We're kind of talking in circles here, Yos... you're starting from an assumption of no effect, and others are starting from an assumption of constant effect.

Oh, not at all. I've been part of a group of daytalking scum, I know it has an effect. I also know that it doesn't have a purely positive effect

[GreyICE]

Well, just finished a game with daytalking scum. Their play wasn't great, but I will tell you one strict effect - votecount analysis goes right out the fucking window. It does literally nothing with daytalk.

[The Fonz]

"No daytalk" seems like a balancing factor thrown into the system by a mod who didn't know how to properly balance the scum team.

Um... no.

Um... yes.

Not saying it can't also be useful. But this is not RL mafia, there is no need to restrict scum to speaking at night.

But it is based on it, so you would assume the default is to be reasonably similar. You suggested 'no daytalk' was an innovation by a mod to weaken the scum. This is emphatically not so. Daytalk was an innovation by mods to benefit the scum, not the converse.

[Herodotus]

Well, just finished a game with daytalking scum. Their play wasn't great, but I will tell you one strict effect - votecount analysis goes right out the fucking window. It does literally nothing with daytalk.

You've decided these two distinct aspects of mafia are correlated based on a single game?

[Yosarian2]

Well, just finished a game with daytalking scum. Their play wasn't great, but I will tell you one strict effect - votecount analysis goes right out the fucking window. It does literally nothing with daytalk.

Has votecount analysis ever done anything good in any game?

[Mr. Flay]

Yes - when scum can't coordinate behind the scenes, they're a lot more likely to make trackable strategic votes.

[Yosarian2]

Yes - when scum can't coordinate behind the scenes, they're a lot more likely to make trackable strategic votes.

Well, if you're talking about strategic votes, then sure (although I don't see what daytalking has to do with that; if anything, daytalking scum tend to do more "strategic" votes).

I thought what he was talking about is that absurd "All the scum are never on the same wagon, but at least one scum is on every wagon..." type of "voting analysis" (usually with fancy multicolored charts) that is pretty much just a pile of wild-ass guessing and unconfirmed assumptions stuck together in a way to make them seem more convincing.

[Yosarian2]

And strangely enough, almost every daytalk thread I've seen relies heavily on feedback to make sure they DON'T all sound the same. We're kind of talking in circles here, Yos... you're starting from an assumption of no effect, and others are starting from an assumption of constant effect.

Oh, not at all. I've been part of a group of daytalking scum, I know it has an effect. I also know that it doesn't have a purely positive effect

As a general rule, scum who daytalk tend to be better organized, better at manipulating the town, and better at actively controlling the day-game. On the other hand, for most of the same reasons, they tend to be less good at blending in, at playing in a way that's close to how they would actually play as town (daytalking scum will generally divert farther from their normal town meta, since the conditions they are playing in and their mindset is much farther from their normal town mindset then it would be if were on their own during the day), and generally less good at playing in an individual way that's hard to trace back to the rest of their scum group.

Basically, giving scum daytalk makes it easier for them to win big and early, to get one of those flashy "scum win on day 3 with the whole scum team still alive and no one in town has any idea of what's going on" kind of performances, but if they don't pull that off, it's then less likely that one or two scum successfully to go their own paths, keep their distance from the rest of the scum groups, and have a shot at a "3 man endgame coinflip" type of victory.

All in all, daytalk probably does help the scum more then hurt them most of the time, and for most playstyles it's generally worth doing, but not all the effects of it are positive, and when you see a scum group choose not to use it much, they often have good reasons for that.

[Mr. Flay]

I can agree with that , Yosarian.

[Vi]

I don't have a reason not to agree with that...

[Zachrulez]

That might be why I've seen daytalk in my games not being heavily used. People seem to be really mindful of making connections to scumbuddies.

[GreyICE]

Well, just finished a game with daytalking scum. Their play wasn't great, but I will tell you one strict effect - votecount analysis goes right out the fucking window. It does literally nothing with daytalk.

You've decided these two distinct aspects of mafia are correlated based on a single game?

Yes actually. You know why? Because VC analysis assumes that the scum are weakly coordinating. That is that they're making their decisions on when to bus and when not to bus independently, they're making their decisions to vote independently, etc. This doesn't work with daytalk, and was something I never even considered until the postgame chat was revealed.

Lets call the three scum Joe, Bob, and Tim

Joe can post "Okay, lets start a wagon on me, I think it's an excellent time for distancing."
Tim posts "I'll give A, B, and C as reasons for voting for you."
Joe says "No, leave C off, I have trouble answering that. Do A and B."
Bob says "Sally is vote flopping and treating this game very unseriously, and is on most people's scumdar. She'll be a good place to move the wagon to."

Boom. Tim starts a wagon on Joe, Bob never gets on it, and it collapses under its own weight and town attention moves to Sally.

Later, Tim posts: "Okay, wagon on Steve is working well. What's our response?"
Joe posts: "I'm already on most people's scumdar, I'm going to push this one through. You both come out strong against me tomorrow, and lynch me. It'll boost both of your town cred, and I'm pretty much a goner if we get this lynch."

Overall, they never have to coordinate bandwagon hopping where the town can see them - it means that their general behavior is lost in the noise.

[popsofctown]

When I mod, I always include day talking scum. It's definitely an advantage to scum, but I find that it increases camaraderie and teamwork among the scum, and it makes it more fun of a game. It requires some thought when designing a set up, but overall, I think it's the way to go as long as you acknowledge it as a factor that does favor scum.

Lol that is true, I did draw a daytalking scum role in one of zoraster's games and love it to death. And here I am arguing the other side >_<.

It is a scum advantage, but it's also fun. Actually, considerably less powerful scumteams with daytalking powers but less night power seems like better design.

And strangely enough, almost every daytalk thread I've seen relies heavily on feedback to make sure they DON'T all sound the same. We're kind of talking in circles here, Yos... you're starting from an assumption of no effect, and others are starting from an assumption of constant effect.

Oh, not at all. I've been part of a group of daytalking scum, I know it has an effect. I also know that it doesn't have a purely positive effect

As a general rule, scum who daytalk tend to be better organized, better at manipulating the town, and better at actively controlling the day-game. On the other hand, for most of the same reasons, they tend to be less good at blending in, at playing in a way that's close to how they would actually play as town (daytalking scum will generally divert farther from their normal town meta, since the conditions they are playing in and their mindset is much farther from their normal town mindset then it would be if were on their own during the day), and generally less good at playing in an individual way that's hard to trace back to the rest of their scum group.

Basically, giving scum daytalk makes it easier for them to win big and early, to get one of those flashy "scum win on day 3 with the whole scum team still alive and no one in town has any idea of what's going on" kind of performances, but if they don't pull that off, it's then less likely that one or two scum successfully to go their own paths, keep their distance from the rest of the scum groups, and have a shot at a "3 man endgame coinflip" type of victory.

All in all, daytalk probably does help the scum more then hurt them most of the time, and for most playstyles it's generally worth doing, but not all the effects of it are positive, and when you see a scum group choose not to use it much, they often have good reasons for that.

Dude you just role-play town in the QT, it totally works.

[ortolan]

Yes - when scum can't coordinate behind the scenes, they're a lot more likely to make trackable strategic votes.

no

[Sleepless Assassin]

Haven't read the entire thread, but I know of at least one site where daytalk IS standard.