Including Oneself in Town Lists

[Terrion]

This does not refer to an ongoing game; I was reading a completed game involving a town list.

(the game, town list, and discussion)

This isn't the first time I've seen somebody be accused of being scum specifically because they included themselves in a town list. Personally, I am against the validity of this as a tell, but I would like to hear out on the opinions of Mafia Discussion. Do you consider including oneself in a town list to be a scumtell, and why? There are two reasons for my belief: you are a confirmed townie to yourself, and site meta dictates this as suspicious.

Naturally, I'm only speaking of players that you don't have a meta read on.

Also, about the subject at hand, what do you see as the scum player motive for including themself within a town list, given site meta against this?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I mostly include myself as neutral to avoid this. I don't like players who use a lot of math and statistics but don't include themselves as a possible scum, I think it's biased and slightly scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Meh. When I'm trying to find scum by process of elimination, I always use all the information I have, including the basic one which is "I know I am town." I may or may not explictly put myself on the town list, but it's always an implicit assumption I make in my calculations; I'll either list myself as town or just leave myself off the list completly.

I always find it odd when people pretend to not know their own alignment when doing that kind of scumhunting. Sure, it's not going to convince anyone else of my alignment, but it's always going to be a part of my thought process as town, might as well be honest about it.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I mostly include myself as neutral to avoid this. I don't like players who use a lot of math and statistics but don't include themselves as a possible scum, I think it's biased and slightly scummy.

If you include yourself as possible scum in your analysis, your suspicions won't be as good as they could be - now that I would find scummy.

As regards to putting yourself in a town list, I don't think this is inherently scummy. If it's part of a pattern of purposefully calling yourself town, then it can be, but I don't think it is in general.

[Sleepless Assassin]

When it's YOUR reads, of course you're obvtown. Share or don't. It's up to the player.

[Kublai Khan]

Usually if it's preceded by a comment like "From my POV, here is my analysis", then it's fine.

But like anything else in Mafia, the more contrived it looks, the scummier it is.

[Yosarian2]

If it's part of a pattern of purposefully calling yourself town, then it can be, but I don't think it is in general.

Meh, I just blatantly call myself town all the time. It freaks some people out, but I don't really care.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

There are always going to be exceptions, Yosarian.

[Terrion]

NOTE:

I wouldn't have anything against including myself in a town list. I think that if I'm stating my thought processes to the town, then I would do it, but if I'm trying to explain to the town what they should think, then I wouldn't include myself (although now that I say the latter, it sounds rather suspicious to tell the town what to think). I am just interested in the idea of whether or not it is a tell. Personally, I don't think it is biased to have inside knowledge as to my own role and thus to include it in a list of likely town.

[Vi]

If it's part of a pattern of purposefully calling yourself town, then it can be, but I don't think it is in general.

Meh, I just blatantly call myself town all the time. It freaks some people out, but I don't really care.

I actually AM always blatantly Town

I think people who think including themselves in Town lists is a scumtell need to sign up for an appointment in a small office with a big red couch, but

But like anything else in Mafia, the more contrived it looks, the scummier it is.

This is sage advice.

If you're doing some kind of analysis, you should always* include yourself as Town for the sake of biasing discussion in your favor.
If people want to do their own analysis, they can use their OWN assumptions.

[Mr. Flay]

I cannot fathom of calling somebody scummy because they call themselves town. "Obvtown", maybe, but just because they put themselves lower than anybody else? Puh-lease.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I cannot fathom of calling somebody scummy because they call themselves town. "Obvtown", maybe, but just because they put themselves lower than anybody else? Puh-lease.

If they are calculating the % chance of lynching scum for example and include themselves in a town list that is barred from lynching along with the claimed power roles, that is scummy

[Faraday]

Depends on the player, I think, but usually null. I'm pretty sure I've called myself obvtown before in games, or maybe I just thought it.

[GreyICE]

I cannot fathom of calling somebody scummy because they call themselves town. "Obvtown", maybe, but just because they put themselves lower than anybody else? Puh-lease.

If they are calculating the % chance of lynching scum for example and include themselves in a town list that is barred from lynching along with the claimed power roles, that is scummy

No it's not. It's the same reason you take vig shots night 0 in night start games (that and if you know any of the players from previous games you can save yourself vast amounts of headache with the right shot).

It's basic information theory. Every piece of information increases the usefulness of the information. If your role PM is green, you MUST include that in your personal analysis. If you are presenting your personal analysis to the town, modifying it to include some chance of you flipping scum is lying to the town. It's the one piece of information a vanilla townie starts the game with, and if you don't use it, you're no better than any other power role who never used their role.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You're wrong. It's the opposite. Removing yourself out of the equation as a lynch target for no reason people can distinguish, that is a little scummy. Maybe you need to re-read my post. I would make my town list along the lines of this:

"People we should definitely lynch today:

GreyICE
Yosarian
Mr. Flay

Players we could lynch today:

ABR
Faraday

Players we should not lynch today:

Terrion (claimed cop)
Vi (cop has innocent result on Vi)"

See, if you put yourself on equal footing with, claimed masons for example, that is a red flag. You should put yourself in the pro-town group or neutral group, but not in the "should not lynch" group. I hope that clarifies what I'm saying for you.

[GreyICE]

Oh, see when you started talking about percentages and odds, I thought you meant actual calculations, like when you've more or less devolved the game into a math puzzle through good/bad play (or, more often, really bad setups) and are attempting to shatter the setup. Those are often where the "hidden variable" that you know you're town comes in the most handy, because it's something that can be overlooked.

If we're talking like reads and stuff, yeah, I understand, but I don't stick my own name on my own reads.

[Zachrulez]

Eh, I don't think it's scummy, but it's not worth anything to anyone outside of yourself either. (You're the only one who knows your town.)

It's usually for that reason that I won't include myself as town.

[Herodotus]

If you're doing some kind of analysis, you should always* include yourself as Town for the sake of biasing discussion in your favor.

* Unless you're scum who is cross-bussing with your team's roleblocker, it's certain that one of you will be lynched, and you're doing a votecount analysis. In that case, leaving yourself as undetermined instead of town "so that you can continue with the analysis after I'm dead" could work.

[ortolan]

tells aren't of the nature "if someone is wearing a green shirt, they're more likely to be scum"

how could you possibly validly analyse someone's psychology to the extent that "including oneself in a town list makes them more likely to be town/scum"

if you're playing mafia like this you're doing it wrong

[Mr. Flay]

Wow, I could hardly disagree with ABR more. If you're approaching lists from the sense of "we could do this", you're doing it wrong. Lists are for what YOU think, and you should never think you're scum (even if you are).

[Albert B. Rampage]

If you're approaching lists from the sense of "we could do this", you're doing it wrong.

It's a perfectly valid approach.

[Mr. Flay]

Again, I disagree completely. Groupthink can't be forced... arguments and debate are how you get the group to agree, not just declaring things to be so.

[Albert B. Rampage]

The declaration underlines the debate, it doesn't replace it.

[Yosarian2]

Really, the only time I'd make the kind of list ABR is talking about is if I think we're in a situation where I can literally break the game by having a majority of confirmed townies and just lynching everyone else. In that case, I'll happily put myself in the "group of people to lynch" category.

[Vi]

Really, the only time I'd make the kind of list ABR is talking about is if I think we're in a situation where I can literally break the game by having a majority of confirmed townies and just lynching everyone else. In that case, I'll happily put myself in the "group of people to lynch" category.

I wouldn't even do that. I would throw in at the end "and if the game is still ongoing, then sure, I can understand why I'd be an option".

(I've actually been in that situation before )