A view on cops:

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
Mastin
Mastin
She/Her
Unabridged
User avatar
User avatar
Mastin
She/Her
Unabridged
Unabridged
Posts: 1622
Joined: October 7, 2008
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: Scumread Inc.

A view on cops:

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:50 am

Post by Mastin »

In a recently-completed game of mine, it was pointed out how my post 314 had good, solid advice for that game, and if it were generalized, would make a good MD article. Well, I'm hoping this isn't generalized
too
much, but here it is:

Cops need to use their investigations better. Far too many cops just investigate one of the more scummy players in the game. This is a waste of that power, because the player's likely to be lynched, anyway. If they were scum, you wasted your investigation just to confirm your suspicions. If they are town, you wasted your investigation on someone who is about to be lynched, and either 1: have to let them die, or 2: claim to save them.

"So what do you expect us to do, investigate our strongest town reads? :roll: " Not
quite
, but close. It's not investigating null players, either, although that tends to work fairly well. Basically, all three strategies DO work, just in different ways, yet I feel generalizing any of the three to be the best option would be a bad idea.

No, what needs to happen is different from that. Because, there's one key fact you have to remember about when you investigate a player:

You're not just investigating a player to see their alignment. Your investigation determines their influence in the future of the game, what part they will play. If you hit scum, their part is "dead, auto-lynched". (Well, presumably, anyway.) When you get innocent, however, you've cemented them as being a town player, and the town has to live with that. Said town player will be forever pro-town, barring special circumstances (strong reason to suspect godfather, strong reason to believe in a not-sane cop, etc., which are generally appearing less and less often).

And that means they'll forever hold that special spot, and will have an influence over the town that will never disappear. If you, say, investigate a Village Idiot, find they're innocent, and they survive to lylo...would you want them to be the hammering vote? I don't know about
you
, but I'd much prefer that if I were fortunate enough to have a confirmed town player alive in lylo, they actually be competent.

An investigation is not just something to use in order to find alignment. It's a tool to determine who the town leaders will be. Who do towns listen to? I could be wrong, but in order, I believe it generally is "Roles, Confirmed Innocents, Pro-Town-Looking-Players". Ideally, anyway. If your Confirmed Innocent is not a strong player, they lose the potential to lead that a better player would be able to exploit.

You're not looking for innocent or guilty when you're a cop. You're looking at the future of the town. You don't want someone who is easily manipulated and/or has a difficult time getting reads to be confirmed town. They have a very high chance of blowing it, of mislynching when the time comes for them to step up and give their insight as confirmed town. (Or, worse, they don't step up at all and remain weak, effectively wasting their potential.)

Who you investigate should not be someone who you necessarily think is scum.
It shouldn't be someone you necessarily think is town, either.

Who you should investigate is who you think should get the job done, when it comes to a worst-case scenario. Where you are dead and have no further investigations, where you got an innocent instead of the guilty most cops hope for. (In truth, getting an innocent can be just--if not potentially
more
helpful--than a guilty, but there are very few who acknowledge this.) Would you want your innocents to be VIs, or good players who make sense, get the town to follow them naturally, keep open minds, analyze the situation carefully, etc.?

This does indeed mean that players who look town by this logic would get investigated more often, but do keep in mind other factors.
-How likely are they to die before you reveal your results? If it's too high, don't do it.
-How much difference would investigating them make to their play? If it greatly improves, it's definitely worth it, if it doesn't (or even gets worse due to being confirmed and exploiting the natural benefits thereof negatively--stuff like lurking, putting no effort into the game, etc.), then you need to look elsewhere.

Basic summary is that you don't want to necessarily look at the most scummy, or most town, or most neutral, player. Best-case scenario, you catch scum with those. Worst-case scenario, though, and your choice becomes the person who will define the future of the game, who--as long as they live--will be in that position to direct the town, and you want them to direct the town in the correct way, for them to nail the scum, even if you yourself could not.

(All that said, getting a guilty certainly is good, of course--especially if it's on someone nobody was really that suspicious of; how many players here have lost a game they were dominating due to a last-second cop claim screwing them over? *raises hand* :P)
Last edited by Mastin on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm back! Well, kind-of.
No Access on Weekends
. :/
Advid reader/contributor to MD, as I'm far better in theory than I am in reality. :P

True to my word, I'm retiring. Totally not me. :P
User avatar
Vi
Vi
Professor Paragon
User avatar
User avatar
Vi
Professor Paragon
Professor Paragon
Posts: 11768
Joined: June 29, 2008
Location: GMT-5

Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:57 am

Post by Vi »

Mastin wrote:Cops should investigate competent players who are not obviously Town or obviously scum.
Abridged for people writing theses.

On the other hand, this actually is a good PSA.
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
User avatar
Zachrulez
Zachrulez
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Zachrulez
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8553
Joined: December 5, 2008
Location: Minnesota

Post Post #2 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:57 am

Post by Zachrulez »

^

It's fun when you follow that mentality, only to learn you were a naive cop who investigated scum.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
User avatar
Albert B. Rampage
Albert B. Rampage
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Albert B. Rampage
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 27261
Joined: April 8, 2007
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:49 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

Oh my god it's a wall. Thanks Vi.
Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.
User avatar
Battousai
Battousai
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Battousai
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3168
Joined: December 9, 2007
Location: Indiana

Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:03 am

Post by Battousai »

Vi wrote:
Mastin wrote:Cops should investigate competent players who are not obviously Town or obviously scum.
Abridged for people writing theses.

On the other hand, this actually is a good PSA.
Investigate people you can't read and aren't bad. Got it.
User avatar
Mr. Flay
Mr. Flay
Metatron
User avatar
User avatar
Mr. Flay
Metatron
Metatron
Posts: 24969
Joined: March 12, 2004
Location: Gormenghast
Contact:

Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:26 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

Yup.
Retired as of October 2014.
User avatar
ReaperCharlie
ReaperCharlie
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
ReaperCharlie
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 5105
Joined: October 19, 2009

Post Post #6 (ISO) » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:50 pm

Post by ReaperCharlie »

Albert B. Rampage wrote:Oh my god it's a wall. Thanks Vi.
It's a good wall, though.

A+ Mastin, would read again, would link to.
Show
"Take me to Pleasure Town!" "Look, the most Glorious Rainbow Ever!" "Do me on it!" -

Spoiler:
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê

ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê

ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê

ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê

ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê

ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê

ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
Ôûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê

ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
ÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûêÔûê
User avatar
quadz08
quadz08
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
quadz08
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 5619
Joined: May 30, 2010
Location: where the wily things are

Post Post #7 (ISO) » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:02 pm

Post by quadz08 »

ReaperCharlie wrote:
Albert B. Rampage wrote:Oh my god it's a wall. Thanks Vi.
It's a good wall, though.

A+ Mastin, would read again, would link to.
Current Avatar: Kronk. Duh.
User avatar
chesskid3
chesskid3
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
chesskid3
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 14658
Joined: August 9, 2010
Location: New Yawk

Post Post #8 (ISO) » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:32 pm

Post by chesskid3 »

cool story hansel
Papa Zito - "Your signature has been blanked...we remove signatures at a users request if said signature references them, or if it quotes from a thread in the Speakeasy, which is not allowed without permission of the poster"
User avatar
DavidParker
DavidParker
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
DavidParker
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2441
Joined: May 30, 2010

Post Post #9 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:28 am

Post by DavidParker »

I tend to investigate players who I am relatively confident will still be alive in a few days time; somewhat regardless of my alignment-read on them, although my thoughts on how long they will live is related to my read on them (ie: I will never investigate the person whose lynch I plan on pushing myself the next day, i'd rather just get them lynched, and have a clear or not-clear on someone else).
"To die will be an awfully big adventure"
User avatar
Oman
Oman
NK Immune Miller Vig
User avatar
User avatar
Oman
NK Immune Miller Vig
NK Immune Miller Vig
Posts: 7014
Joined: June 19, 2007

Post Post #10 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:28 am

Post by Oman »

chesskid3 wrote:cool story hansel
Yup pretty much.

Is this really so different to current meta? I don't know if many people weren't playing this way, even if they weren't thinking of it like that.
It's unfortunate that good oral sex excuses bad chemistry. - Korts
User avatar
AGar
AGar
He/Him
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
AGar
He/Him
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 5916
Joined: May 20, 2009
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Brawleigh

Post Post #11 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:30 am

Post by AGar »

DavidParker wrote:I tend to investigate players who I am relatively confident will still be alive in a few days time; somewhat regardless of my alignment-read on them, although my thoughts on how long they will live is related to my read on them (ie: I will never investigate the person whose lynch I plan on pushing myself the next day, i'd rather just get them lynched, and have a clear or not-clear on someone else).
Have you ever actually GOTTEN a cop? Lol.

Good read. I never really understood the cop role, so it's interesting to me.
Ski mask? Check! Sawed off? Check! Guilty conscience, fear of death? Check! Check! Check!

Get to know me. Or don't. I won't tell you what to do. I'm not God. Or your father. Or your boss.
User avatar
Vi
Vi
Professor Paragon
User avatar
User avatar
Vi
Professor Paragon
Professor Paragon
Posts: 11768
Joined: June 29, 2008
Location: GMT-5

Post Post #12 (ISO) » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:21 pm

Post by Vi »

Oman wrote:Is this really so different to current meta? I don't know if many people weren't playing this way, even if they weren't thinking of it like that.
This metatactic has been known to earn Scummies before :shifty:
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
User avatar
Yosarian2
Yosarian2
(shrug)
User avatar
User avatar
Yosarian2
(shrug)
(shrug)
Posts: 16394
Joined: March 28, 2005
Location: New Jersey

Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:05 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Depends on the situation.

In a minigame, if it's night 2, and you have no relevent information (say, night 1 you investigated someone who died), you really want to find a scum, any scum, especally if the town hasn't caught one yet. The town is falling behind here, but if you catch a scum and claim, it'll buy time, and likely make the rest of the team much easier to catch. In this situation, you probably target the person you think is the scummiest, in the hopes of catching a scum and claiming the next day.

On the other hand, if it's night 3 and you already have 2 innocents, both of who are still alive, you really want to find another innocent. Then the next day you claim, and the town now has a claimed cop and 3 confirmed innocents; that's usually an autowin for the town. So in this situation, you want to target the most obviously town person in the game that you can find (that you haven't already confirmed yet).

The "investigate a competent person you don't have a read on" is decent advice for day 1, but, like most things in mafia, everything is situational.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
User avatar
The Fonz
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 9215
Joined: April 2, 2007
Location: UK

Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:35 am

Post by The Fonz »

Not to mention, if it's night two in a mini and town's mislynched twice and there's an 'obvious' candidate for D3, then lynching him is going to lose the game if he's not actually scum. In which case, investigating him might be a good idea, provided that you don't think he's going to be vigged.
User avatar
Battousai
Battousai
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Battousai
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3168
Joined: December 9, 2007
Location: Indiana

Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:44 pm

Post by Battousai »

The Fonz wrote:Not to mention, if it's night two in a mini and town's mislynched twice and there's an 'obvious' candidate for D3, then lynching him is going to lose the game if he's not actually scum. In which case, investigating him might be a good idea, provided that you don't think he's going to be vigged.
Though, I would think most vigs wouldn't kill the night before lylo.
User avatar
Herodotus
Herodotus
Black Ops
User avatar
User avatar
Herodotus
Black Ops
Black Ops
Posts: 2758
Joined: December 14, 2008

Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:38 am

Post by Herodotus »

But they should if it's the night before mylo.
Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone
User avatar
The Fonz
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 9215
Joined: April 2, 2007
Location: UK

Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:26 am

Post by The Fonz »

Herodotus wrote:But they should if it's the night before mylo.
This.
Benmage
Benmage
Survivor
Benmage
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 13727
Joined: December 20, 2008

Post Post #18 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:58 am

Post by Benmage »

Tl/DR Investigate unlikely NK's/hard to read people.... Like what I did in Gorrads game.
"ITT Benmage is making Shakespeare look cool. I need to bring you to my high school." -Vi
"If i must blantantly follow somone a player cannot do better than blindly following benmage" - tubby216
User avatar
The Fonz
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 9215
Joined: April 2, 2007
Location: UK

Post Post #19 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:00 am

Post by The Fonz »

Or what I've been doing for years. Mastin deserves credit for flagging this up, though.
Benmage
Benmage
Survivor
Benmage
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 13727
Joined: December 20, 2008

Post Post #20 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:21 am

Post by Benmage »

Well that was the first time I got the cop role..and I was only a single team cop. :(
"ITT Benmage is making Shakespeare look cool. I need to bring you to my high school." -Vi
"If i must blantantly follow somone a player cannot do better than blindly following benmage" - tubby216
User avatar
Ythan
Ythan
She
Christmas Keeper
User avatar
User avatar
Ythan
She
Christmas Keeper
Christmas Keeper
Posts: 15569
Joined: August 11, 2009
Pronoun: She

Post Post #21 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:22 am

Post by Ythan »

Oman wrote:
chesskid3 wrote:cool story hansel
Yup pretty much.

Is this really so different to current meta? I don't know if many people weren't playing this way, even if they weren't thinking of it like that.
I can see players who don't really think it through investigating the people they suspect the most.
User avatar
The Fonz
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 9215
Joined: April 2, 2007
Location: UK

Post Post #22 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:38 am

Post by The Fonz »

Yeah, the newbie instinct is 'I've been arguing with X, I'll investigate him and show the world what a scum he is!' more often than not. Then he comes up town on investigation, and the cop has to do a massive and really obvious 180.
User avatar
Mr. Flay
Mr. Flay
Metatron
User avatar
User avatar
Mr. Flay
Metatron
Metatron
Posts: 24969
Joined: March 12, 2004
Location: Gormenghast
Contact:

Post Post #23 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:43 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

To be fair, though, "Why didn't you investigate X?" is (or was) a common scum-claiming-cop detector. If there's no CW for who a cop should investigate, ignoring your biggest suspect can be problematic.
Retired as of October 2014.
User avatar
Ythan
Ythan
She
Christmas Keeper
User avatar
User avatar
Ythan
She
Christmas Keeper
Christmas Keeper
Posts: 15569
Joined: August 11, 2009
Pronoun: She

Post Post #24 (ISO) » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:45 am

Post by Ythan »

Link here.
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”