Confirm votes: Good or Bad?

[jeep]

So what does everyone think about requiring confirm votes?

I think that they say "ok folks, don't think about who your voting the first time, just vote willy nilly and then you can change your mind.

It gives the mafia an advantage if they can vote one person, get a vote from someone else, then suddenly switch and confirm AFTER someone has majority, just not confirmed... If they don't, then people just vote and confirm making it no different than a regular vote.

-JEEP

[eillid]

They're confusing. I don't like them. I'd rather people not do it. I always mentally count it as a second vote, because I never bother to check who's voting. I just count how many. Anyway, if you have to confirm to make a real vote, then what's the point of a FOS? The unconfirmed vote seems just like one.

[Internet Stranger]

Because at the end of a game, some people may vote early then dissapear. Then some new important information comes along that would have caused those people to unvote.

In some cases its too late, the leftover mafia goons could jump on the bandwagon and end the game quickly despite the new information. Kinda stealing the victory.

So, if you want to argue against that scenario as unfairness to the mafia, feel free tom do so.

[jeep]

I just can't wrap my head around this:

Man 1, Man 2, and Man 3 grab Scapegoat. The mob had worked themselves into a frenzy, intent on making him pay for the crimes they are sure he committed.

Then they stop.

"Hmm...," they say. "Are we certain we want to lynch this guy?"

Okay, okay, let's go through this again.

Man 1 screams "Get the rope and get it now Scapegoat has gotta pay!" and grabs one of Scapegoat's arms.

Scapegoat: "I'm innocent!!!"

"I dunno. I mean sure I was going to lynch him and I was REALLY sure, but ...," waffles man 2. "I think I'm going to change my mind."

Man 3 yells " Scapegoat did it, I'm SURE" and he grabs Scapegoat

Man 2 grabs Scapegoat saying "Okay, I guess we can get the rope!"

Woman 1 comes in "What's going on here, why are there only men in this mob? While I was powdering my nose, I thought about it and I think Scapegoat did it."

Man 1 screams "C'mon Man 2 and Woman 1, we know you want to lynch this guy, but say it again! Saying it once doesn't really mean that you want to. You have to scream it TWICE!!!"

If you aren't willing to lynch someone, DON'T VOTE FOR THAT PERSON!

I think that 'confirm vote' should just be an aid for the mod so that they don't count you twice.

[Sketchwick]

lol at jeeps portrayal of the RP aspect of it.

I voted that it's evil. The mafia has a hard enough time deciding to kill Antrax night 1 and what not...

Seriously, I don't like it. Just MO

sketchwick

[jesternl]

I think it's bad.. I don't vote unless I'm willing to string that person up, and yes, sometimes it can be a mafia technic to get a quick lynching done, before people realize what's going on. If it wasn't for a last minute introduction of a "confirm vote" the mafia would've won in mini game 5, and frankly, it pisses me off that it didn't work because of that.

[Cadmium]

I also think they're bad. Like Jeep said, why vote for someone twice? IMO it's the same thing as:

vote: Cadmium

.
.
.
.
.

unvote: Cadmium, vote: Cadmium

Wow, the first time I voted myself (twice).

[jeep]

Isn't it more like:

vote: Cadmium , unvote: Cadmium

.
.
.
.
.

vote: Cadmium

?

-JEEP

[Pegasus]

If you have a set format for voting, then a vote in that format should count unless rescinded.

If you aren't sure who to vote for, wait. Alternately, watch the game closely so your "preliminary" vote doesn't contribute to something you don't want to happen.

Asking people to confirm their votes just drags things out, and games that drag on and on are the pits.

[Antrax]

Vote confirmations are essential late in the game, when very few people are left. Otherwise, the mafia can blitzkrieg. See Alien Mafia (:-\) for reference.
Antrax

[Antrax]

Hm, maybe I should just tell you what happened.
The game was down to 4 aliens. Three of one race, one of another race (the mafia race. They ate others at night). The moderator was groza, the players were me, mith, JDTAY and someone else. I knew JDTAY was the eater alien through the use of the powers that constantly get me killed in the first night. I waited for daylight to show everyone the logical conclusion, and win the game. Groza ended the night at noon US (which is midnight here), and I was dead before the sun rose physically in Israel, on two votes -- one JDTAY and one hasty mith. That should not have happened, IMO.
Antrax

[Sketchwick]

4 left? Shouldn't it take 3 votes to lynch?

sketchwick

[Dragon Phoenix]

I absolutely do not like it, and will not use it in any of my games. It just holds up the whole thing. A majority is a majority and up he goes... We are (mostly?) intelligent players who should be able to think about the consequences of votes before we cast them.

[Antrax]

Umm, DP, you of all people should believe in equal opportunity to people who live IN DIFFERENT TIME ZONES. It's really unfair if I don't even get to say anything because I happen to live in another place, geographically.
Antrax

[Dragon Phoenix]

It's all part of the game.

[Antrax]

Really? People should be penalized because their paretns chose to live outside the US? What an interesting rule. I wonder how many people would agree with you on that.
Antrax

[jeep]

It doesn't matter what time zone you are in. If you vote, then you have voted... If you aren't sure, then unvote when you go to bed OSLT.

Even in games where confirm votes were asked for it was usually:

vote: scapegoat, confirm vote: scapegoat

which is nothing more than extra typing.

Antrax, you are correct: in that four player game you should not have been lynched on two votes... but ignoring that and assuming that we had to accept the mods weirdness and two votes were all that was required, how would requiring confirm votes have helped? You don't think that JDTAY and mith would have simply confirmed? Wouldn't "night will last until a simple majority AND at least 24 rl hours have passed" have been a more suitable solution to the problem you are suggesting? And no, I'm not suggesting that the 24 rl hour proposal should be used, just wondering...

-JEEP

[Antrax]

Umm, I don't think I'm making myself clear.
Confirm votes can only be made after the accused has defended himself. Get it? That way people aren't screwed because they were vboted for while sleeping.
Antrax

[Samadhi]

Confirm voting is nonsense. Manipulation of voting is key to a mafia win. That is why it is bad strategy to make votes in later rounds without discussion. The fact that it is bad strategy will not prevent people from doing it anyway. But it is not the mods job to protect the town from themselves.

[Antrax]

Samadhi, I don't think it's really consistant with the theme of the game that people get lynched because they live in a different time zone. I mean, what? The town gathers but someone is sleeping late? There's the forgotten concept of "fairness", and being screwed because you live in a different time zone is nonsense.
Antrax

[Mike Amok]

The situation you described seems plenty fair to me. mith should have been more careful with his vote and waited to hear from you. I can certainly understand being frustrated if your side loses because of one person's hasty little mistake, but I agree that that's all part of the game.

[Antrax]

Let us review the IRL version of the game, shall we?
Antrax: "I say we vote for Baruchi because he's a Fatuchi!"
Everyone vote for Baruchi

Moderator: Baruchi, LAST WORDS?

Baruchi: "This really sint' funny any more, you guys, I-"
Antrax:"Kill him!"
Everyone vote. Baruchi, Cop, is lynched.

Get my drift? I didn't get a chance to post. At all. Why, because I was lazy? NO, BECAUSE I LIVE IN A DIFFERENT TIME ZONE. THE DAY WAS OVER IN 2 HOURS, ALL OF WHICH TOOK PLACE BETWEEN MIDNIGHT AND 6 AM ISRAEL TIME. How the hell is that fair?
Antrax

[Internet Stranger]

Actual voting yields so much information. Its a huge part of the game. You know so much from people's voting patterns.

That being said if people start being "careful with their votes" the game will suddenly stall because no one will post.

[Mike Amok]

Everybody gets your drift, Antrax.

No, you didn't get a chance to post, and not because you were lazy, but

because mith voted hastily

. Time zones and such

shouldn't

make a difference, but the solution is for the town to be cautious with their votes,

not

for the mod to impose caution on them.

Of course, if a mod wants to use confirm votes, I'm not going to complain. I don't think it's necessarily unfair, I just think it's unnecessary.

IS, surely even you won't mind if a game stalls for a mere 12 hours when there's only one mafioso left to lynch.

[Antrax]

Time zones and such shouldn't make a difference, but the solution is for the town to be cautious with their votes, not for the mod to impose caution on them.

Why? That's exactly the moderator's job.
Antrax