How strong could a SK be?

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Yosarian2
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Post Post #25  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:41 pm

SensFan wrote:
shaft.ed wrote:
SensFan wrote:
Mr. Flay wrote:Whahuh? Do Masons usually claim their partner outright in your world?

If they are being lynched, yes. Otherwise, the claim is useless...
protip: masons should breadcrumb their partners if they are confirmed.

And if they are being lynched, a claim of 'Mason' means nothing at all unless your partner speaks up.


Disagree. "I am a mason. I'll claim my partner if I have to, but I'd rather not", will often get a "Ok, don't claim your partner just yet", in most games I've seen, unless the person is looking absurldy 110% scummy. It's not like the person could get away with it forever, plus if they're lying they're risking getting counterclaimed by a real mason group.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie

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Post Post #26  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:43 pm

I should also point out that, since I made this thread way back in 2005, my opinion has changed. I've won as a SK with no extra abilities since then, and I no longer think it's always necessary to "beef up" a SK in a mini game.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie

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Post Post #27  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:41 pm

You are the UBERSK. Every night, you may target as many players as you like. All of them will die. Anyone who targets you will die.
(Mod Notes:Wins with the town)
Anyone who would actually play mafia sucsk

SensFan
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Post Post #28  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:43 pm

Yosarian2 wrote:
SensFan wrote:
shaft.ed wrote:
SensFan wrote:
Mr. Flay wrote:Whahuh? Do Masons usually claim their partner outright in your world?

If they are being lynched, yes. Otherwise, the claim is useless...
protip: masons should breadcrumb their partners if they are confirmed.

And if they are being lynched, a claim of 'Mason' means nothing at all unless your partner speaks up.


Disagree. "I am a mason. I'll claim my partner if I have to, but I'd rather not", will often get a "Ok, don't claim your partner just yet", in most games I've seen, unless the person is looking absurldy 110% scummy. It's not like the person could get away with it forever, plus if they're lying they're risking getting counterclaimed by a real mason group.

Really? That seems absurd that Scum can fakeclaim Mason and not even need to involve a partner to get out of being lynched...
(11:04:10 PM) senspizzaline: That's actually my bold prediction for the year
(11:04:19 PM) senspizzaline: Miami finishes 2nd in the AFCE.
(11:05:35 PM) jhawk01b: my bold prediction for the year is that whoever wins the NFC West will have a winning record

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Post Post #29  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:44 pm

Yosarian2 wrote:I should also point out that, since I made this thread way back in 2005, my opinion has changed. I've won as a SK with no extra abilities since then, and I no longer think it's always necessary to "beef up" a SK in a mini game.

Whoops, my bad. I definatively hadn't noticed the bump...
(11:04:10 PM) senspizzaline: That's actually my bold prediction for the year
(11:04:19 PM) senspizzaline: Miami finishes 2nd in the AFCE.
(11:05:35 PM) jhawk01b: my bold prediction for the year is that whoever wins the NFC West will have a winning record

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Post Post #30  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:52 am

Yosarian2 wrote:It is pretty universally decided that a SK is the hardest role to win with, so I was wondering, how strong could you make an SK and have the game still be balanced? Would you give the SK an additional one-shot day-kill along with his night-kills, or give him immunity from night kills, or looks innocent to investigations? Or perhaps two out of the three?



Do not make him both NK immune and investigation immune. It completely screws the mafia if he gets investigated. The additional one-shot daykill I like; it penalises town for claiming unnecessarily. Though I'd like it even more if it were a one-shot daykill that could only be used on lurkers. :D Or even a multishot daykill in the above fashion.

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Post Post #31  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:01 am

Mafiaplayer wrote:You are the UBERSK. Every night, you may target as many players as you like. All of them will die. Anyone who targets you will die.
(Mod Notes:Wins with the town)


this role takes out all the fun. survive day 1, target everyone, instawin for town
Fight me, dumbass.

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Post Post #32  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:14 am

Just had a thought... I know everyone hates jesters, but what about a specific day jester? Who has to get himself lynched on a particular day (not the first). Seems to me there's skill there in surviving to that point.

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Post Post #33  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:18 am

You are a NAL Seriel Killer. At night you may kill any player of your choice. You may also kill any player during the day who has not posted for more than 7 days without some V/LA notice in their sig, the games posts, or the V/la thread. You are aligned with your self and you win when you are the last one alive or nothing can be done to prevent this. Nuke all lurkers. Good Luck
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Post Post #34  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:28 am

The Fonz wrote:Just had a thought... I know everyone hates jesters, but what about a specific day jester? Who has to get himself lynched on a particular day (not the first). Seems to me there's skill there in surviving to that point.

You are George Bush, a C avg student who somehow got lucky enough to be elected president of the united states twice. It would be absolutly hilarious if you could get those guys to vote for you again after all the trouble you caused. A third term in office would be awesome, but its going to take some very delicate stratejere for you to gather a majority of the votes on day 3. Hopefully you can pull this off without being killed in office ahead of time. Should you succeed you will win the game and have diplomatic immunity once again. Meaning you can help me write death scenes and what not as the rest of the game progress. You won't be harmed as you have the oportunity to watch a good show, it can be just like a cartoon for you. Good Luck Mr. President.
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Post Post #35  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:36 am

The Fonz wrote:Just had a thought... I know everyone hates jesters, but what about a specific day jester? Who has to get himself lynched on a particular day (not the first). Seems to me there's skill there in surviving to that point.


I made a role like this in a theoretical setup. Jester that had to get lynched day 3, otherwise they killed themselves and lost the game.

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Post Post #36  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:43 am

Darox wrote:
The Fonz wrote:Just had a thought... I know everyone hates jesters, but what about a specific day jester? Who has to get himself lynched on a particular day (not the first). Seems to me there's skill there in surviving to that point.


I made a role like this in a theoretical setup. Jester that had to get lynched day 3, otherwise they killed themselves and lost the game.


if you do this in a small game, you have the chance you help the scum by making the town more likely to lynch a third-party player.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.

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Post Post #37  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:26 pm

The Fonz wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:It is pretty universally decided that a SK is the hardest role to win with, so I was wondering, how strong could you make an SK and have the game still be balanced? Would you give the SK an additional one-shot day-kill along with his night-kills, or give him immunity from night kills, or looks innocent to investigations? Or perhaps two out of the three?



Do not make him both NK immune and investigation immune. It completely screws the mafia if he gets investigated. The additional one-shot daykill I like; it penalises town for claiming unnecessarily. Though I'd like it even more if it were a one-shot daykill that could only be used on lurkers. :D Or even a multishot daykill in the above fashion.


I agree with you.

I disagree with 2005 Yosarian2.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie

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Post Post #38  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:22 pm

I liked my role in a large game I played once, I dont remember which because Im too drunk. However I was SK with one NK immunity. I won (its the game I boast about too much). I would say that was balanced.

I think it depends on the game tbh.
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Post Post #39  (ISO)  » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:06 am

Massivly powerful SK's are fun but porochaz is right. Do to it what you can to keep things balanced out so that the SK has an equal chance of winning compared to everyone else.
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Post Post #40  (ISO)  » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:11 pm

In the context of a large theme game...

It's a player who has to kill everyone else in the entire game by themselves. Usually within an environment of other killing roles and cops. On top of that, you have to actually manage to not get lynched the entire game. I mean, if it wasn't for the fact that you get to indiscriminately kill people, it would really suck to have to play as a SK. I think that's why people generally think it's a "fun" role to play, unlike, say the survivor - which I think is relatively comparable.

I'm thinking that makes it OK to give them abilities you wouldn't slap on a normal town or mafia aligned player, or would do so with hesitation.

Also - Youngstown, Pokerface? (I'm formerly from there and visit my family on college breaks.)
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Post Post #41  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:09 am

Last day on irc, I got to choose between Devil's Advocate, Serial Killer and some more on a 4 player game. I chose Devil's Advocate. The power to inspect is fun. I just claimed cop day1 with a "guilty" result of the person who I inspected first. Then since I wasn't sanity confirmed, we just went nolynching till I inspected everyone. I just gave town results for the other two.


Then the bot crashed. But that was an awesome role.
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Post Post #42  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:39 am

Mafiaplayer wrote:You are the UBERSK. Every night, you may target as many players as you like. All of them will die. Anyone who targets you will die.
(Mod Notes:Wins with the town)

(Other Mod Note: You lose if you ever kill more town members than non-town members *Your entire kill set might not get through.)
*Though actually, that might be something the player should know if it were to be realistically be used.

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Post Post #43  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:04 am

*bites PK*
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Post Post #44  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:21 pm

I just played a game with a nice variation of the SK role: priority of kill and a oneshot day ability which could make the day go into no-lynch at any moment. It was really fun to play as.
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

On SK's in general, I think there a two ways of looking at it. You can either try to give them a fairer chance of winning by buffing them a bit, or you can consider the SK role as the Holy Grail of scumplay, and leave them as they are, for only the best players to conquer.

I also think that bad play by competing scumteams is the biggest help to SK wins, which make SK's always interesting to have in a setup.

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Post Post #45  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:40 am

I don't mind buffing SKs up some, but I think it's poor design to buff SK's enough to where they have an equal chance of winning as the town, or standard mafia do. It's an individual in a team game. It's only natural that they have a lowered chance of winning. The role is meant to be a fun but challenging role with a less than standard chance of winning.

I like minor buffing of the SK. Unnightkillable, for example, is something I find to be a fair SK buff. They only have to worry about avoiding getting lynched, not both avoiding the lynch and night kill, which can prove extremely hard to overcome. I think stuff like unnightkillable and is town to investigations and is untrackable, etc. just makes the SK into some sort of super power that is impossible to bring down.

@SL: I think the role you had as SK was fair for the SK. It's basically a 1-shot unlynchable, that you'll have a hard time playing off as pro-town after using it. I think a better design would have been to make it so using it doesn't end the day, it merely makes you unlynchable that day. That way, using your ability still gives you the same benefits, but doesn't completely screw over the town from even hunting the other scum that day. The kill priority I thought was a nice touch as well. That adds some nice flavor to the SK role, as you can avoid night kills by masterfully killing a player who may otherwise kill you. I really like that idea, and would probably use it or some variation of it if I include a SK in games. My issues with the setup in that game wasn't as much from the perspective of your own role, but with the issue that the town made no mislynches from day 3 onward and still lost. I was frustrated that I lost despite narrowly avoiding my own lynch after the large amount of "role information" aimed at my head and then subsequently correctly identifying all the scum.

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Post Post #46  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:34 am

Be careful with un-NKable SKs: it makes them much more dangerous to the town. An 8-3-1 mini can be reasonably balanced if the scum are likely to crosskill, but if the SK has kill immunity, it's too weighted against the town.
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Post Post #47  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:55 am

This is probably the most powerful SK I've seen in a forum game:

Xyre wrote:The Man in the Armani Suit - Serial Killer

"We have a job for you."

You sigh. The Associated Press always has a job for you. "What is it?"

The voice pauses for a moment, as if considering its notes. It then returns, radiating out from a pair of speakers in your pitch-black room. "You know the Fiasco Corporation."

It wasn't a question, and so you don't answer. The voice doesn't expect one. Your relation has become very natural as of late. "I hear from our associates that you're doing very well with the downsizing of their people."

Grinning, you shoot back: "It's not a difficult job. All you've given me is removing the occasional researcher. I need more, Alpha."

Alpha pauses, and you can tell he's grimacing. "Please don't call me that." His voice is delicate, and vaguely British. He's a calculating bastard if there ever was one. "Gamma was saying the same thing recently. So we've decided to follow through. The Fiascos are getting too close, old sport. We need the situation rectified."

You think for a long moment. "How much damage?"

Alpha laughs, a deep, throaty laugh. "All of it, old sport. We need you to shut it down."

"What's the pay?"

"Don't worry about the pay", Alpha responds. "Just be assured that it will be substantial. So, what do you say? Up for the challenge?"

You smile. "I'm always up for the challenge."

Although you can't see him, you imagine that Alpha and the rest of the Press is smiling, like the satisfied killers they are. With that note, you reach over and grab your Sig Sauer, before slowly walking from the room and out onto the street. You check your watch. 8:45. Right on schedule. With that note, you begin moving slowly towards the Fiasco building, like a shark in bloody water.


You have the following abilities:

Each day, you may kill a player of your choice. Your kill method is a bullet between the eyes. If you did not make a kill during the previous day, you gain one point. At any time, you may spend a point on any of the following abilities:

- You are +1 to lynch that day, up to the total number of players minus one.
- You cannot be killed that night.
- Investigations used on you that night turn up innocent.
- Abilities that target you during that night will be redirected to a player of your choice. Players who used the redirected abilities will be told this has happened.
- You have an extra vote that day.

You may use as many of these abilities as you would like at the same time, provided you have enough points. These abilities also do not prevent you from using your kill during the day.

Win condition: Kill everyone.

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Post Post #48  (ISO)  » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:07 pm

Well, I was going to pop in here to tell y'all about the buffed SK in the last game I ran, but it looks like SL and Goat beat me to it. Might as well explain the justifications.

The SK was given kill priority. In short, her kill was guarenteed to go through before the night action of whomever she targeted. This allowed for a skilled player to predict being targeted by investigations, kills, etc and avoid them by killing the player who was about to target her. It's a minor buff that rewards skilled play and, IMO, should be added to SKs in general.

The main purpose of the one-shot no-lynch was to give a patient SK a way to turn a prisoner's dilemma tie into a win. Though I hadn't thought of it beforehand, the ability also served as a good fake-claim: one-shot governor. As a side note, the ability allowed the SK to stop ANY lynch, not just her own. Note also that a few town players were given one-shot abilities that were capable of counteracting the no-lynch.

Like Goat said, there were some balance problems with the set-up, but I think that the SK was nicely balanced. She won the game after playing well, and both buffs made a difference.
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Post Post #49  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:18 pm

I just won as SK in Family Guy, so I came here to brag.

Also, I've wanted to post here recently but figured I shouldn't until FG mafia was over.

I was NK immune in the game, which definitely helped me win, as I couldn't be killed the last night. However, nobody tried to kill me until the last night, including mafia. If the mafia had known I was NK immune (by a kill failing), they would have pushed for my lynch the last day, instead of voting no-lynch. The no lynch combined with me being NK immune gave me the game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9776
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