Randomness

[Sofis]

Personally, I think mafia should be a game of skill and strategy, not luck, and so all roles should be completely deterministic, and not depend on percentage chances.

[Muser]

Isn't having to deal with a reasonable amount of randomness a valid test of one's skill and strategy?

Two gang members who have 50% chance of success separately, or 100% combined, have a strategic decision to make each night. And it provides more variety to the game.

A random cop, on the other hand, sounds like a bad idea to me. Isn't he just less desirable than a plain ole townie? Not only does he have no useful ability, his flawed ability is likely to be detrimental to the town. Seems like a simple townie should be the least handicapped role anyone should be required to play. On the other hand, having to figure out you're a random cop might be more interesting than just being a simple townie.

Even a serial killer can be used to the town's advantage, if he's able to accurately target the mafia, correct?

I generally like board games with just a bit of luck thrown in, but not much.

Hence my vote for "...in moderation".

'Course, I haven't played a game yet...just been lurking. But I'm interested in getting a grasp on all this theory before I get into a game.

[eillid]

I like it when there isn't much randomness. Randomness (like a serial killer, as if that role isn't already hard enough, who has only a 75% chance of killing his target) makes it a little less fun. Especially at the end, if you have that serial killer, a maf, and a townie. However, the randomness can be fun once in a while, especially if most of the roles are similarly handicapped, and preferably if they know it.

[jeep]

Randomness can be used in moderation.

For example, say you have a scenario where you think you have a mostly balanced game, but some mechanic you gave the mafia makes you think that they have just a slight advantage. You might make a townie into a medic- a doctor that has a 50% chance of saving a person who has been shot. Or if it's the other way around, the town is too powerful, you might demote a doctor to a medic.

You can make great games that force people to understand probabilities in order to play well, etc. Look at backgammon (with the doubling cube), if you need to see a good game of skill that has a random element.

-JEEP

[Antrax]

My opinion about the subject is well known. Randomness takes the strategy out of mafia, because it adds a really uncalled-for element of luck in the game. For the same reason, my games have very few "roles", in order not to turn the game into "will the cops target the mafias first, or the other way around? stay tuned!"
Antrax

[Samadhi]

Well, pure randomness yes. I've grown to not like that. However, if you adjust a person's chance of success based on what they do, it adds another facet to strategy.

For example, in BR mafia the chance of a successful kill by various people depended on what they did or who they attacked. This affected the strategy of the game. I thought it worked okay.

[verge_of_taboo]

i like a small element of randomness in a game. it keeps players on their toes. you can't plan too far in advance, and makes you rethink your strategy. of course, too much is too much. only a few roles or events should have a large portion of thier actions depend on chance.

[Antrax]

you can't plan too far in advance

Which, I suppose, is a good thing, because hey, everybody hates to plan in advance, right? Give me some fast reactive games, I don't want to think or anything. Maybe we should incorporate luck into chess, as well, so the players will be on their toes and can't plan too much ahead.
Antrax

[Angel Fish]

I used percentages to even up unbalanced roles (perhaps that's a design flaw in my game? I don't know). For example - I think that allowing a cult to recruit certain roles, e.g. psychics or doctors would make them too powerful, as would recruiting one member of the mafia, revealing the whole family. OTOH, if I just said "You cannot recruit player X" they'd get extra information (player X is clearly a doctor, psychic or Mafia, and therefore an enemy). So I put in a 50:50 chance of recruiting, so that a night's failure is not informative.
Is that randomness? Surely it depends on the set up? Some would become unplayably biased without percentagesin there somewhere.

[mith]

I never let cults recruit Mafia for exactly that reason. Either way you do it (Mafia actually recruited, so they can reveal other Mafia names, or Mafia actually not recruited, so the Mafia can reveal Cult names) is unbalanced. If the cult is on the town side, it just makes them a bit more powerful; either way though, I usually throw in some people that can't be recruited for whatever reason.

[Dragon Slayer]

Sofis:

I think that although skill is important in playing a mafia game you can't base a game on skill alone. There is only so much you can do by posting words. If the mod thinks there is too much power in a certain role that can kill someone for instance, I think there should be a randomness to the outcome. How else would someone show their skill to kill someone. In this case it kind of has to be random, at least as far as I can tell.

[Dragon Slayer]

As far as random cops go, I wasn't really alll that thrilled about it- I sure wouldn't want to be one. Howevr I've come to see that it can sometimes put an interesting twist on the game. Although it's probably frustrating to be one I think that they are exceptable in certain games. Especially if the mod thinks it makes the sides more even.

[Dragon Phoenix]

I have started out with randomness in some of the roles (I remember faith healer - a 50% doc, and a second-hand bullet proof vest - 50%). I also once ran a game where the cops were armed and had a 50/50 chance of killing or being killed when targeted by the mafia.

I have come to dislike this random element though. I am not using it anymore in my new games. If I want to give a role a 50% power, I am more likely to make it a 0/100% on odd/even nights for instance (like the commuter).

[Antrax]

If the mod thinks there is too much power in a certain role that can kill someone for instance, I think there should be a randomness to the outcome.

That, or the Mod should realise he sucks at designing roles, and design it better. If you design the super-cop that has a 1 in 10 chance of finding out all the mafia, every night, the game comes down to pure luck: does he find everybody and live to tell the tale, or not? The stronger the roles, the stupider the game becomes.
Antrax

[jeep]

Generally, I agree. I generally don't like adding in the randomness to this type of game...

For quercitron's Flying Pumpkin, how do you think it SHOULD have been designed?

-JEEP

[Antrax]

Interesting one. Howabout:
Each night, you can choose one of two:
I) Shoot. You will kill whoever you shot at, and retreat back to hiding, being safe from night kills.
II) Aim. You will not be safe from night kills tonight. Tomorrow night, you will kill your target if he's mafia, or not if he's a good guy (or the Godfather ).
That way, if the pumpkin wants survival, he'll have to play the serial killer -- and then it's going to be difficult to convince the town he's on their side.
Antrax

[jeep]

Awesome. I like it.

-JEEP

[Dragon Slayer]

Antrax: First of all, I don't like that particular randomness nad agree- that bases the game too much on luck. However if a role has too much power I think it's ok to have a 50% chance or something to decide the outcome. In some games the only way to balance the roles is to add

some

randomness to them. Otherwise some games wouldn't work. As far as the example you mentioned- that I'm not thrilled about at all. BUt like I said in some cases I see it nessicary as long as it's not crazy.

[Dragon Slayer]

BTW, Sofis, if you have a respose to my opinion, I'd like to hear it.

[quercitron]

Yeah, I debated about putting so much randomness/probability-based stuff in Improbable Role, but it all worked out okay. The next game I have planned has pretty much zero randomness. Out of curiosity, what do you all think of the gang mechanic? As in, Mafia with the special ability to target two people at night if they want to and have a 50% chance at each. They don't have to utilize that part of their role.

q

[Antrax]

A smart mafia would never use it. Statistically speaking, it's the same as choosing one target. Having control of who of the two dies is important. There is absolutely no advantage to it over the regular kill. (you should've seen how I've argued against using the Force Lightning in Starwars Mafia I )
Antrax

[Sofis]

I think that although skill is important in playing a mafia game you can't base a game on skill alone.

Why on earth not? There are plenty of completely skill-based games that work just fine. Like chess, for instance. Why wouldn't mafia work without chance? What does chance add to a game, for that matter?

There is only so much you can do by posting words.

Sure. But there's still only "so much" you can do if you add chance to the mix, though it's a slightly larger "so much". You have not exlained what is insufficient about the "so much" one can do with words.

If the mod thinks there is too much power in a certain role that can kill someone for instance, I think there should be a randomness to the outcome.

The mod can adjust the power of a role in a multitude of ways. DP and Antrax have mentioned some; one method that hasn't been mentioned is limiting the number of times a role may utilise its abilities. Or, if the unbalance is that one side is too weakened if a character dies, you can split its powers over two roles (one doctor that treats gunwounds+one doctor that treats poisoning=one full doctor, for example). Or, you can add some sort of weaknesses (dies of a heart attack if he/she gets half a majority of votes, loses powers if certain events occur). Or, you can make some roles of the other side immune to the role's powers. You can make some roles of the other side that kills the role if he/she uses his/her powers on it.

[Elayne]

I really don't care for randomness.

ESPECIALLY when involving kills. Game balance cen be really messed up in cases like that.

I much much prefer things like DP was talking about. Something that only works on odd/even nights or something like that.

[Polotet]

But what about when a theme requires giving a certain role powers to stick with the theme, and percentages, but not limitations, fit in with the theme? Is it better to ruin the integrity of the theme by using limitations or taking away the powers, or to leave things to chance by using some randomness?

[ralphmerridew]

It's possible to even get rid of the randomness in distributing roles in certain cases.

For example, I had the vague idea for Auction Mafia: At the beginning, the mod posts a list of roles. Each player starts with a certain amount of cash, and can bid on which ones he/she wants. High bidder gets the role. In addition, each day there are various items (for example, one-night protection) which players can bid on.

(Because of the long waits to mod a game, I never actually ran this. Anyone who wants to try it is welcome to use it. I'm willing to help iron out the actual rules.)