Random first night choices?

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Random first night choices?

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:36 pm

Post by Antrax »

The idea is borrowed from another group. They play it such that the first night target (for the cop, they only play cop/mafia/townies) is random. The reasoning is to stop the cop from choosing the same players over and over again. Of course, the same idea could be applied to mafia, doc, etc. The rationale is that in the game world, the characters have nothing to go on, and it tries to offset ye olde "kill Antrax the first night" tactic, that naturally disgruntles the Antrax. What do you think? Is it a good idea?
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:54 pm

Post by jeep »

Why not just start the game with day, then? If the concern is that there is nothing to go on, start with day and then there IS something to go on. I've wondered why mafia starts with night... I assumed that it was to help offset the advantage that the mafia usually has in a straight game... gives the cop some information.

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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:52 am

Post by Werebear »

I like the idea... it does keep certain people from being targeted. So the cop would get an email, and it would say "You are a cop, and your first night random investigation will be XXX, and they are YYY"... and the day would start immediately after all the confirms are in.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:13 am

Post by MeMe »

I'm with jeep -- why not just start with day? I always feel quite sorry for the poor schmucks who wind up dead without even having a chance to speak. When we play IRL, we use the first "night" only for the groups to acknowledge each other and that seems to work nicely. Is there a reason it wouldn't work online?
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:35 am

Post by Antrax »

One is supposed to start with a night if there's an even number of players, so the "to lynch" will be a true majority. It's basically tradition, I guess. Most games are 12, 20 or 30 players, so you usually start with a night. Also, I like starting with a night because it gives the town SOMETHING to go on. Maybe the cop is signaling them the mafia he found, etc.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 am

Post by Werebear »

I agree that night is best served first, but I like the idea of random investigations/killings. They're random anyways, why not have the mod choose randomly for everyone who would normally send in a name, and make the first night something that comes with your confirmation email?
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:33 am

Post by jeep »

One is supposed to start with a night if there's an even number of players, so the "to lynch" will be a true majority.


If the doc doesn't save someone... if there is only one killer... etc.

So if you are simply supposed to start day with an odd number of people, then I suggest this:
Sign up an odd number of people
Start with day
Day 1: Cop(s) might start with a random investigation

Docs lose the indirect investigation that they might get, but it's rare enough anyway... ("I protected X and no one died, so X is probably innocent")

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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:34 am

Post by mith »

The fairly obvious reason that the game Mafia starts with night, which I am surprised no one has mentioned, is that it doesn't really make sense for the town to be lynching people when no one has even committed a crime. :) Some mods get around this by saying that some random person died, etc. I prefer starting with night though, and I don't like the idea of being forced to have a random "choice". My choices are fairly random anyway, but, for instance, if I have lately had trouble reading a person, I might want to check them early on as a Cop. But that's just my opinion.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:30 am

Post by MeMe »

Well, mith, following your line of thinking...if there shouldn't be a lynch without a crime, I'd have to conclude that there shouldn't be a police investigation without a crime. So, if you want to be completely true to life, the mafia would get a free kill, while doctors, cops, and townies would be kickin' back in front of the TV, assuming all is fine in their little world.

I personally like it when the mod says "Arrgh! people are dying! only 12 left! find the culprit(s)!"
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:59 am

Post by Gaspode »

mith wrote:The fairly obvious reason that the game Mafia starts with night, which I am surprised no one has mentioned, is that it doesn't really make sense for the town to be lynching people when no one has even committed a crime. Some mods get around this by saying that some random person died, etc. I prefer starting with night though, and I don't like the idea of being forced to have a random "choice". My choices are fairly random anyway, but, for instance, if I have lately had trouble reading a person, I might want to check them early on as a Cop. But that's just my opinion.


I agree. Plus, the town can get a little info based on who dies. For example, if I recently had a grudge against mith, and mith died first night, people might be suspicious of me. I'm not saying that carrying grudges from game to game is good, but some people probably do it, and it's a better way to vote than random.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:09 pm

Post by jeep »

It's not better, because then it sets up incriminate kills... "hmm.. Gaspode had really had it in for mith, so if we mafia folk kill mith, the town will lynch Gaspode." That gives the mafia TWO kills.

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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:17 pm

Post by Gaspode »

Yeah, but what if I was a stupid mafioso who did it just because I was mad at mith? Then the town benefits. It all depends on how you look at it. Starting with a night isn't necessarily good or bad, it's just different from starting with day, and I like it the way it is.

Anyway, if a mod really wanted to have random first-night choices (s)he could include it as part of his/her game.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:31 pm

Post by Quailman »

That's a good suggestion, Gaspode, but the catch-22 is that Antrax proposed this because of the "kill Antrax the first night" mentality. If he's modding, then he doesn;t have to worry about getting killed the first night, and if he's not modding, then he can;t apply the rule.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:47 pm

Post by jeep »

Actually, I think that it's gotten away from "Kill Antrax" and on to "Kill someone who is known to be a good player, but not the top couple players, because they're likely to be protected. As soon as the docs start protecting others, then it will go back to Kill top couple players... etc....

It's self correcting, but that probably doesn't comfort Antrax during the part of the cycle where he's killed first night.

Although, it is and is likely to stay more likely that cops check the top players. Look at how many people checked out Antrax in Improbable Role mafia...

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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:06 pm

Post by Antrax »

I think you're all focusing too much on actual cases. The point is this. OBVIOUSLY, something is added to the game by having a metagame. However, it's more or less Vizziny logic, all of it. The claim is that there shoudln't be such a thing -- nobody should be dubbed "good player" or "bad player", but rather, every game weighed individually, and the choices in each game based only on what happened during that game. To enforce that view, the first night, when there's no information, is random. So, do you think a metagame is good?
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:47 pm

Post by eillid »

I like knowing how certain people play. And bringing in logic from other games can help out, too, sometimes. Random choices would suck, because I usually choose someone (if I'm cop) who I've seen play before, because it gives me something more to go off of (even if I can only use it for my night two investigation). Like an anchor or something. "Hey, I know so-and-so is Role, and he's acting like this, and this other person is acting like this towards him, so...." Not everyone does choose randomly. I'd rather (as a pro-town person) have no investigation and no death than have a random investigation.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:01 pm

Post by Antrax »

Don't you think that's turning the game from mafia to someone else? Mafia can be played with strangers. "Know-your-GLers" cannot. I personally enjoyed my earlier games a lot more, before it became so technical and complex (partially I'm to blame for it), that nobody ever does anything for no reason anymore. I know, it's easier to catch mafia when you frown on random votes, but damn those early games were fun.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:17 pm

Post by CaptainBlicero »

I think randomizing all Night 1 choices wouldn't solve anything. First off, most players probably wouldn't like having their choices made for them. Also, all you high-rollers would just get searched Night 2. You could also avoid the Night 1 heat by just signing up with an alias. People would probably figure it out once you started posting, but they wouldn't get you Night 1 based on reputation. I think at this point, meta-gaming is way too entrenched into the game to do anything about it, save for alias-only games like Padded Wall.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:22 pm

Post by Antrax »

The thing is, by night 2 you usually have SOMETHING to go on. I know I usually do, when I play. Metagaming isn't entirely bad, but it can become preposterous at times (see: being targetted by everyone in the game on the first night, Antrax, Mafia 30something). I agree aliases solve all problems in a much better way, but for some reason I hate them :)
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:41 pm

Post by CaptainBlicero »

Yeah, I thought Padded Wall was a great idea, but all those generic names drove me friggin' insane and I quickly lost interest. I think an all-alias game might be workable, but you'd need to make some creative aliases (SleepsWithPigs, Bastard_Elvis, Sailor Moon.... etc.)
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Thu Jan 23, 2003 6:03 pm

Post by Antrax »

Yeah, I thought Padded Wall was a great idea, but all those generic names drove me friggin' insane

Wasn't that the point? ;)
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:10 am

Post by mith »

I know, it's easier to catch mafia when you frown on random votes, but damn those early games were fun.


Pah, why do you think I argued with you for four pages when you declared random votes unconstitutional? :P
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:12 am

Post by mith »

As for Padded Wall, I think the setup was great, but it was hurt by the mod trying to have a life more than anything else. ;) I do think the aliases just don't work very well on this board, and yes, I could've been more creative with them. I'll keep that in mind if I do it again. :)
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:31 am

Post by jeep »

If you do them again, be sure to keep them easy to remember and not too similar... I didn't like two Ezra's in Salem...

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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:45 am

Post by Werebear »

I liked the alias game where each name began with a different letter. *Grin* Much easier to keep track.
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