Random first night choices?
-
-
Antrax mith owns mafiascum.net
- mith owns mafiascum.net
- mith owns mafiascum.net
- Posts: 313
- Joined: April 2, 2002
- Location: Israel
- Contact:
Random first night choices?
The idea is borrowed from another group. They play it such that the first night target (for the cop, they only play cop/mafia/townies) is random. The reasoning is to stop the cop from choosing the same players over and over again. Of course, the same idea could be applied to mafia, doc, etc. The rationale is that in the game world, the characters have nothing to go on, and it tries to offset ye olde "kill Antrax the first night" tactic, that naturally disgruntles the Antrax. What do you think? Is it a good idea?
Antrax- jeep
-
jeep Cappo Bastone
- jeep
- Cappo Bastone
- Cappo Bastone
- Posts: 747
- Joined: April 21, 2002
- Location: Portland, OR
Why not just start the game with day, then? If the concern is that there is nothing to go on, start with day and then there IS something to go on. I've wondered why mafia starts with night... I assumed that it was to help offset the advantage that the mafia usually has in a straight game... gives the cop some information.
-JEEP- Werebear
-
Werebear Cursed One
- Werebear
- Cursed One
- Cursed One
- Posts: 1564
- Joined: September 20, 2002
- Location: Endwell, NY
- MeMe
-
MeMe Post or Perish
- MeMe
- Post or Perish
- Post or Perish
- Posts: 10710
- Joined: October 6, 2002
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
I'm with jeep -- why not just start with day? I always feel quite sorry for the poor schmucks who wind up dead without even having a chance to speak. When we play IRL, we use the first "night" only for the groups to acknowledge each other and that seems to work nicely. Is there a reason it wouldn't work online?Remember...It's not a lie if you believe it. -- G. Costanza-
-
Antrax mith owns mafiascum.net
- mith owns mafiascum.net
- mith owns mafiascum.net
- Posts: 313
- Joined: April 2, 2002
- Location: Israel
- Contact:
One is supposed to start with a night if there's an even number of players, so the "to lynch" will be a true majority. It's basically tradition, I guess. Most games are 12, 20 or 30 players, so you usually start with a night. Also, I like starting with a night because it gives the town SOMETHING to go on. Maybe the cop is signaling them the mafia he found, etc.
Antrax- Werebear
-
Werebear Cursed One
- Werebear
- Cursed One
- Cursed One
- Posts: 1564
- Joined: September 20, 2002
- Location: Endwell, NY
- jeep
-
jeep Cappo Bastone
- jeep
- Cappo Bastone
- Cappo Bastone
- Posts: 747
- Joined: April 21, 2002
- Location: Portland, OR
One is supposed to start with a night if there's an even number of players, so the "to lynch" will be a true majority.
If the doc doesn't save someone... if there is only one killer... etc.
So if you are simply supposed to start day with an odd number of people, then I suggest this:
Sign up an odd number of people
Start with day
Day 1: Cop(s) might start with a random investigation
Docs lose the indirect investigation that they might get, but it's rare enough anyway... ("I protected X and no one died, so X is probably innocent")
-JEEP- mith
-
mith Godfather
- mith
- Godfather
- Godfather
- Posts: 9267
- Joined: March 27, 2002
- Location: McKinney, TX
- Contact:
The fairly obvious reason that the game Mafia starts with night, which I am surprised no one has mentioned, is that it doesn't really make sense for the town to be lynching people when no one has even committed a crime. Some mods get around this by saying that some random person died, etc. I prefer starting with night though, and I don't like the idea of being forced to have a random "choice". My choices are fairly random anyway, but, for instance, if I have lately had trouble reading a person, I might want to check them early on as a Cop. But that's just my opinion.- MeMe
-
MeMe Post or Perish
- MeMe
- Post or Perish
- Post or Perish
- Posts: 10710
- Joined: October 6, 2002
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Well, mith, following your line of thinking...if there shouldn't be a lynch without a crime, I'd have to conclude that there shouldn't be a police investigation without a crime. So, if you want to be completely true to life, the mafia would get a free kill, while doctors, cops, and townies would be kickin' back in front of the TV, assuming all is fine in their little world.
I personally like it when the mod says "Arrgh! people are dying! only 12 left! find the culprit(s)!"Remember...It's not a lie if you believe it. -- G. Costanza- Gaspode
-
Gaspode Old school
- Gaspode
- Old school
- Old school
- Posts: 426
- Joined: September 21, 2002
- Location: New Jersey
mith wrote:The fairly obvious reason that the game Mafia starts with night, which I am surprised no one has mentioned, is that it doesn't really make sense for the town to be lynching people when no one has even committed a crime. Some mods get around this by saying that some random person died, etc. I prefer starting with night though, and I don't like the idea of being forced to have a random "choice". My choices are fairly random anyway, but, for instance, if I have lately had trouble reading a person, I might want to check them early on as a Cop. But that's just my opinion.
I agree. Plus, the town can get a little info based on who dies. For example, if I recently had a grudge against mith, and mith died first night, people might be suspicious of me. I'm not saying that carrying grudges from game to game is good, but some people probably do it, and it's a better way to vote than random.- jeep
-
jeep Cappo Bastone
- jeep
- Cappo Bastone
- Cappo Bastone
- Posts: 747
- Joined: April 21, 2002
- Location: Portland, OR
- Gaspode
-
Gaspode Old school
- Gaspode
- Old school
- Old school
- Posts: 426
- Joined: September 21, 2002
- Location: New Jersey
Yeah, but what if I was a stupid mafioso who did it just because I was mad at mith? Then the town benefits. It all depends on how you look at it. Starting with a night isn't necessarily good or bad, it's just different from starting with day, and I like it the way it is.
Anyway, if a mod really wanted to have random first-night choices (s)he could include it as part of his/her game.-
-
Quailman Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1372
- Joined: October 7, 2002
- Location: Spring, Texas
- jeep
-
jeep Cappo Bastone
- jeep
- Cappo Bastone
- Cappo Bastone
- Posts: 747
- Joined: April 21, 2002
- Location: Portland, OR
Actually, I think that it's gotten away from "Kill Antrax" and on to "Kill someone who is known to be a good player, but not the top couple players, because they're likely to be protected. As soon as the docs start protecting others, then it will go back to Kill top couple players... etc....
It's self correcting, but that probably doesn't comfort Antrax during the part of the cycle where he's killed first night.
Although, it is and is likely to stay more likely that cops check the top players. Look at how many people checked out Antrax in Improbable Role mafia...
-JEEP-
-
Antrax mith owns mafiascum.net
- mith owns mafiascum.net
- mith owns mafiascum.net
- Posts: 313
- Joined: April 2, 2002
- Location: Israel
- Contact:
I think you're all focusing too much on actual cases. The point is this. OBVIOUSLY, something is added to the game by having a metagame. However, it's more or less Vizziny logic, all of it. The claim is that there shoudln't be such a thing -- nobody should be dubbed "good player" or "bad player", but rather, every game weighed individually, and the choices in each game based only on what happened during that game. To enforce that view, the first night, when there's no information, is random. So, do you think a metagame is good?
Antrax-
-
eillid Watcher
- Watcher
- Watcher
- Posts: 0
- Joined: April 29, 2002
- Location: Laguna(s), California.
I like knowing how certain people play. And bringing in logic from other games can help out, too, sometimes. Random choices would suck, because I usually choose someone (if I'm cop) who I've seen play before, because it gives me something more to go off of (even if I can only use it for my night two investigation). Like an anchor or something. "Hey, I know so-and-so is Role, and he's acting like this, and this other person is acting like this towards him, so...." Not everyone does choose randomly. I'd rather (as a pro-town person) have no investigation and no death than have a random investigation.-
-
Antrax mith owns mafiascum.net
- mith owns mafiascum.net
- mith owns mafiascum.net
- Posts: 313
- Joined: April 2, 2002
- Location: Israel
- Contact:
Don't you think that's turning the game from mafia to someone else? Mafia can be played with strangers. "Know-your-GLers" cannot. I personally enjoyed my earlier games a lot more, before it became so technical and complex (partially I'm to blame for it), that nobody ever does anything for no reason anymore. I know, it's easier to catch mafia when you frown on random votes, but damn those early games were fun.
Antrax-
-
CaptainBlicero ARRRRRRRR!
- ARRRRRRRR!
- ARRRRRRRR!
- Posts: 657
- Joined: August 30, 2002
- Location: Big Timber, Montana
I think randomizing all Night 1 choices wouldn't solve anything. First off, most players probably wouldn't like having their choices made for them. Also, all you high-rollers would just get searched Night 2. You could also avoid the Night 1 heat by just signing up with an alias. People would probably figure it out once you started posting, but they wouldn't get you Night 1 based on reputation. I think at this point, meta-gaming is way too entrenched into the game to do anything about it, save for alias-only games like Padded Wall.-
-
Antrax mith owns mafiascum.net
- mith owns mafiascum.net
- mith owns mafiascum.net
- Posts: 313
- Joined: April 2, 2002
- Location: Israel
- Contact:
The thing is, by night 2 you usually have SOMETHING to go on. I know I usually do, when I play. Metagaming isn't entirely bad, but it can become preposterous at times (see: being targetted by everyone in the game on the first night, Antrax, Mafia 30something). I agree aliases solve all problems in a much better way, but for some reason I hate them
Antrax-
-
CaptainBlicero ARRRRRRRR!
- ARRRRRRRR!
- ARRRRRRRR!
- Posts: 657
- Joined: August 30, 2002
- Location: Big Timber, Montana
- jeep
- Gaspode
- jeep
- Gaspode
- MeMe
- mith
- jeep
- Werebear
- MeMe
- Werebear
- jeep