Should a vig who shoots N1 be Modkilled?

[Demon Core]

Seriously, are there people out there that draw vig and then choose to play as a VT? How often do you get the opportunity to be a vig? If anything, I would modkill someone who drew the role and then didn't use the kill.

[Llamarble]

Absolutely not; shooting N1 is usually their best move.
I wrote a couple paragraphs then realized I was just saying the exact same thing Hoopla did.

Can I see those 'vigs don't help winrate' stats? In addition to what Hoopla mentioned about some shots being used wrong, I'm guessing those games counted vigs as a significant town power role when balancing their setups, in which case the takeaway is closer to 'adding a vig and removing a cop doesn't change winrate much,' which I find believable. "Is cop or vig a stronger town PR?" is a much more reasonable question than 'are vigs pro-town.'

[quadz08]

LLAMAFLUFF

DEMON CORE IS CALLING YOU

[DoomYoshi]

Well, at first I thought everyone agreed that Vig is an anti-town role. Now I see that this is not unanimous decision. Curious.

[Timeater]

"Is cop or vig a stronger town PR?" is a much more reasonable question than 'are vigs pro-town.'

Cops are rarely CC'd if ever on MS so cops by a mile.

[Demon Core]

Well, at first I thought everyone agreed that Vig is an anti-town role. Now I see that this is not unanimous decision. Curious.

I think you're overstating it. At best, a great vig can win the game singlehandedly for a shitty town. At worst, a bad vig can accelerate the losing for an already-struggling town. I've never actually seen a great town lose because of a bad vig.

[Demon Core]

LLAMAFLUFF

DEMON CORE IS CALLING YOU

I'm confused....

[Demon Core]

How does it feel to be the 1 guy that voted yes on the poll, doomyoshi?

[chamber]

Absolutely not; shooting N1 is usually their best move.
I wrote a couple paragraphs then realized I was just saying the exact same thing Hoopla did.

Can I see those 'vigs don't help winrate' stats? In addition to what Hoopla mentioned about some shots being used wrong, I'm guessing those games counted vigs as a significant town power role when balancing their setups, in which case the takeaway is closer to 'adding a vig and removing a cop doesn't change winrate much,' which I find believable. "Is cop or vig a stronger town PR?" is a much more reasonable question than 'are vigs pro-town.'

Highly suspect Vig is not only stronger than cop, but enough stronger that your question isn't actually all that good either.

[Porochaz]

Where is pie when you need him?

If you dont shoot N0 you don't deserve to be a vig.

[Demon Core]

Where is pie when you need him?

If you dont shoot N0 you don't deserve to be a vig.

I seriously do support N0 vigging.

Especially in a large game, there are usually people who are just mislynch bait. And even if they do draw a PR, they're in that crappy position where the role itself is worth more than the player.

[DoomYoshi]

It feels fine. At least I can see the reasons for it.

However, due to the varying opposing positions, there are some logical flaws.

FTR, I do mean N1, not N0, but N0 is another interesting choice.

You are effectively making the argument that including a vig is a mod error, and are thusly encouraging the mod to make up for his or her error by killing the innocent player.

It's not necessarily a mod error. However, unless there is some pretty damning D1 evidence (CC in an open game), a single shmuck with reads should not be deciding the fate of another player.

I seriously do support N0 vigging.

Here it seems that many people think that are thinking a mod should allow a player to kill an innocent player instead of a mod.

How often do you get the opportunity to be a vig?

Mafia Goon is indistinguishable from Vig, so it's not that uncommon.

[UberNinja]

I've only ever been a vig once. I shot Night 1. I hit scum Night 1. Am I a systemic anomaly?

[Yosarian2]

The point is, you're proposing something that no sensible player would ever do.

Exactly. No sensible player would ever shoot N1 OR shoot an innocent child, so they are equal.

A lot of people make the mathematical argument that a full vig should always shoot night zero because, in theory, a random vig shot improves the town's chances of winning in most games.

I don't agree with it, personally, I think the information cost is too high, but it's not irrational or necessarily anti-town.

[DoomYoshi]

I've only ever been a vig once. I shot Night 1. I hit scum Night 1. Am I a systemic anomaly?

No. SKs hit scum N1 too.

[Yosarian2]

Absolutely not; shooting N1 is usually their best move.
I wrote a couple paragraphs then realized I was just saying the exact same thing Hoopla did.

Can I see those 'vigs don't help winrate' stats? In addition to what Hoopla mentioned about some shots being used wrong, I'm guessing those games counted vigs as a significant town power role when balancing their setups, in which case the takeaway is closer to 'adding a vig and removing a cop doesn't change winrate much,' which I find believable. "Is cop or vig a stronger town PR?" is a much more reasonable question than 'are vigs pro-town.'

Highly suspect Vig is not only stronger than cop, but enough stronger that your question isn't actually all that good either.

Er; I can't agree with that. Cop is so much stronger then a vig. If a cop investigates two innocent people and then claims, he's already increase the town's chances of lynching correctly on every susequent day by somewhere between by, what, 30% and 100%. If a cop targets a scum, it's even better.

Cop targeting two town >> vig targeting two town

Cop targeting 1 scum and 1 town >> a vig targeting one scum and one town

Cop targeting two scum is probably about the same as a vig targeting two scum. Vig might be slightly better, but town really just wins either way.

And, of course, the third scenerio is by far the least likely of the three.

Vig is a role that probably increses town's odds of winning if played right, but it's no cop.

[LlamaFluff]

LLAMAFLUFF

DEMON CORE IS CALLING YOU

I'm confused....

Im one of the most well known "Vigs should never shoot" players.

N0 in a large game is one of those times that is acceptable to policy vig someone though because its almost impossible to tell what the game will end up looking like and there are players who will decrease town chances of winning even if they are town. Outside of those only spots where I think vigs should shoot would be: confirmed scum, forced win path, game will stay at odd players post shot.

Even the "two vig shots vs lynch" arguement I dont love for reasoning to shoot. Lets say even 70% of the time the vig gets two shots, 30% of the time you are changing a lynch into a vig shot, and thats a really bad 30%. Im going to see if I can find my old 'vig accuracy' numbers though because those were really eye opening for how hazardous to town vigs are in normals. You literally could just kill the first player alphabetically and kill more scum then what the average vig does.

Cop is far far far stronger than a vig. I would put cop on equal ground of vig+1 or 2 VT in a closed. Something like Cop+8VT vs 2 Goons I think town wins more than Vig + 10VT vs 2 Goons

[Majiffy]

This thread is bad and you should feel bad.

[Llamarble]

Cop targeting two town >> vig targeting two town

Cop targeting 1 scum and 1 town >> a vig targeting one scum and one town

Cop targeting two scum is probably about the same as a vig targeting two scum. Vig might be slightly better, but town really just wins either way.

1. One of the townies the vig shot is a townie the scum would have gotten to nightkill, but yes, the cop is definitely better here.
2. This is a slight win for the cop. The vig traded a lynch / NK cycle for a dead scum and a dead town. The cop will make sure the same thing happens and have the innocent going forward.
3. With cop the town will need to use 2 lynches on the scum whereas the vig essentially traded 1 lynch / NK cycle for 2 dead scum. Vig clearly wins here.

The cop comes out slightly ahead on these, but vigs are more robust:
If scum shoot a vig, the vig generally still can accomplish something that night.
Vigs are stronger claims since they can prove they did something when nobody else claims the shot.
Cop innocents can get shot before the cop gets to claim them.
A carelessly played cop can die with unclaimed, uncrumbed results.

And when the vig gets a free mylo->lylo shot, that is an enormous win for town.

[Leafsnail]

Vig is better than cop if and only if you can identify scum perfectly without inspections (you should be winning the game anyway then).

[Yosarian2]

Cop targeting two town >> vig targeting two town

Cop targeting 1 scum and 1 town >> a vig targeting one scum and one town

Cop targeting two scum is probably about the same as a vig targeting two scum. Vig might be slightly better, but town really just wins either way.

1. One of the townies the vig shot is a townie the scum would have gotten to nightkill, but yes, the cop is definitely better here.
2. This is a slight win for the cop. The vig traded a lynch / NK cycle for a dead scum and a dead town. The cop will make sure the same thing happens and have the innocent going forward.
3. With cop the town will need to use 2 lynches on the scum whereas the vig essentially traded 1 lynch / NK cycle for 2 dead scum. Vig clearly wins here.

The cop comes out slightly ahead on these, but vigs are more robust:
If scum shoot a vig, the vig generally still can accomplish something that night.
Vigs are stronger claims since they can prove they did something when nobody else claims the shot.
Cop innocents can get shot before the cop gets to claim them.
A carelessly played cop can die with unclaimed, uncrumbed results.

The key thing to always keep in mind, though, is that about 75% of the time, any cop or vig is going to be targeting a townie at night. That is the most common result of any night targeting, just because there are so many more townies then anything else. Every time a cop targets a townie, it's a big help to the town; every time a vig targets a townie, it either hurts the town or, at best, fails to help the town. Hence, most of the time, cops will be much better for town then vigs.

Also, vigs tend to kill people who haven't claimed yet, unlike lynches, so they quite frequently take out other town power roles.

And when the vig gets a free mylo->lylo shot, that is an enormous win for town.

Having 1 cop-confirmed innocent in 4 player Mlyo is actually better then a 3 man lylo without a cop confirmed innocent, though. The cop still comes out ahead here, I think.

[LlamaFluff]

I found some of the old data, think this was the first 100 or so MN games after we started checking them, it needs an update which I will do eventually. A good vig may help the town, but I think more often then not the vig ends up doing more harm than good.

N1 vigs Shoot Scum 12.5% of time
N1 random vig is 25.9%

N2 vigs shoot scum 0% of time
N2 random vig is 27.9%

N3 vig shoots scum 0% of time
N3 random vig is 16.7% of time

Total vig hits scum 7.1% of time
At random it should be 26.2% of time

[Leafsnail]

Having 1 cop-confirmed innocent in 4 player Mlyo is actually better then a 3 man lylo without a cop confirmed innocent, though. The cop still comes out ahead here, I think.

If the vig survives he could claim the kill though. That way he either clears himself or bulletproof/gambiting scum counterclaims and he clears the other townie, assuming there's no possibility of SKs in the game.

[DoomYoshi]

This thread is bad and you should feel bad.

Maybe the OP is terrible, but the discussion generated has been great.

Thanks for posting those stats Llamafluff.

It seems that shooting N1 is the only time a vig should shoot.

[DoomYoshi]

Oh wow lol. I went to change my vote, and realized I have never voted in the first place. We need to figure out who the sole person is.