Should a vig who shoots N1 be Modkilled?

[PokerFace]

Vig should always try to kill who they think is scum on N1. They should do the same every future night unless having one less player for town is perceived as ending the game overnight. If its N0 you should kill any player with a reputation or ruining games and or ruining the fun for everyone. For example if there is someone in your game that has ruined a previously concluded game by posting their role pm day 1, kill that player now!

Only reasons you should mod kill a player is if they purposely break site and or game rules in a way that ruins everyone else's fun

[Gamma Emerald]

I’m taking your opinion with a pile of salt because of your sig lol

[Nancy Drew 39]

I’m eagerly awaiting the follow up thread to this: Should a doc who heals be modkilled or a cop who investigates?

I think think it’s a close call but this thread even beats the quickhammering ban thread - just barelyl

[PokerFace]

Vig should always try to kill who they think is scum on N1. They should do the same every future night unless having one less player for town is perceived as ending the game overnight. If its N0 you should kill any player with a reputation or ruining games and or ruining the fun for everyone. For example if there is someone in your game that has ruined a previously concluded game by posting their role pm day 1 and its currently night 0 and you are a vig, kill the game ruiner now!

Only reasons you should mod kill a player is if they purposely break site and or game rules in a way that ruins everyone else's fun

I’m taking your opinion with a pile of salt because of your sig lol

I won't always kill on night 0 as vig. Put me in a game with some of the most respectable players who have a history of great games as multiple alignments, I am killing no one night 0.

Put me in a game with one game ruiner on night 0 and give me a kill, I can tell you exactly who I am killing. If there is more than one previously banned, site rules breaker in the game, its gonna be dependent on how I am feeling that day and or if I got a dice or a coin near by to decide which bad player gets it

[callforjudgement]

It's normally mathematically correct to vig on N0, and aim for someone who's good at scum and bad at town. (Note that such players often tend to be game-ruining or highly erratic, so this has a very high correlation with PokerFace's strategy.)

There are some setups in which N0 vigging is incorrect, but they're rare enough that it's only worth doing in an Open (when you've analysed the setup and calculated that it's a bad idea).

However, most good moderators won't allow players access to N0 vig kills anyway, as doing so means that you have to get more players for your game and not all of them get to play.

[popsofctown]

Vig kill functions very similarly to a lynch..

Anyway, if you think a power role should only be used a specific way that is very different from how it is used in site meta, it's potentially possible that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Excluding the role from your games would probably be the best call.

[Leucosticte]

I played a game where I fired randomly on N1 and the result was that (1) most of the townies got angry and decided to punish me by ostracizing me the rest of the game, and (2) most of the scum kept their silence about it. So an astute observer could've paid attention to the reactions and gotten a read on who were likely scum.

Actually, what I did was, I announced on D1 that I was vig, and who my target was going to be that night, and that I was doing this to prove I was town. My thought was, in this way I could (1) get a shot off before getting killed and (2) narrow the pool of suspects by two, since I would be at that point confirmed town and the target of the shot would be out of the game.

[RadiantCowbells]

9 month bump

[Not_Mafia]

A warranted bump, this is one of the all time great ms shit-threads

[Leucosticte]

When the OP says "N1" does he really mean "N0"?

I always say that "N0 means yes" but some people insist it needs to be consensual

From https://archive.werewolv.es/extra/livev ... e=PostGame :

A D2 lynch would be implied consensus from the village/wolves and therefore have some control or influence over it. A night 1 maverick shot that in most statistical probabilities is going to harm the town rather than help it, made by a single individual, is a different matter.

[Nancy Drew 39]

So, what if a vig shoot an innocent child?

That’s practically becoming an epidemic on this site, I’m so glad you brought attention to this cancer.

[Leucosticte]

if you have ever killed town in a game when you were also town, then you were wrong and will continue to be wrong always and should therefore never try again because you will always fail. that's how things work.

Yeah, pretty much.

[RadiantCowbells]

You should also never play mafia again if you have ever lynched town

[Kublai Khan]

When the OP says "N1" does he really mean "N0"?

I always say that "N0 means yes" but some people insist it needs to be consensual

From https://archive.werewolv.es/extra/livev ... e=PostGame :

A D2 lynch would be implied consensus from the village/wolves and therefore have some control or influence over it. A night 1 maverick shot that in most statistical probabilities is going to harm the town rather than help it, made by a single individual, is a different matter.

I was a vig in my last game and took 2 shots with a 50% scum kill rate.

[Leucosticte]

I was a vig in my last game and took 2 shots with a 50% scum kill rate.

Were those N1 shots, though.

[Nancy Drew 39]

You should also never play mafia again if you have ever lynched town

lmao

[Ankamius]

iirc I've only ever been able to vig someone N1 once and it was on scum

do I win

[Kublai Khan]

I was a vig in my last game and took 2 shots with a 50% scum kill rate.

Were those N1 shots, though.

The first night after Day1? Yes.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think we can all agree that no competent game mod, ever allows vig shots/factional kills on n0.

[Leucosticte]

The first night after Day1? Yes.

It was the same way over at werewolv.es; there had been three prior games (wlf-024, wlf-038, wlf-045) where a N1 militia (aka vig) shot took out scum, and I tried it and was unlucky enough to take out a friendly power role (the Diseased; when scum kills them, they're unable to kill the next night). So thus far, there's a 75% rate of the vig taking out scum on N1 since I was the first one to try it and hit a townie.

Maybe a N1 shot is similar to the king's gambit in chess. Supposedly, it's been refuted, but if you play it against people who aren't prepared for it, it can give you an advantage.

[Gamma Emerald]

I dayvigged scum D1 so suck an egg, haters

[Kublai Khan]

The first night after Day1? Yes.

It was the same way over at werewolv.es; there had been three prior games (wlf-024, wlf-038, wlf-045) where a N1 militia (aka vig) shot took out scum, and I tried it and was unlucky enough to take out a friendly power role (the Diseased; when scum kills them, they're unable to kill the next night). So thus far, there's a 75% rate of the vig taking out scum on N1 since I was the first one to try it and hit a townie.

Maybe a N1 shot is similar to the king's gambit in chess. Supposedly, it's been refuted, but if you play it against people who aren't prepared for it, it can give you an advantage.

I'm not sure if any analysis has been done here about the accuracy rating of vigs for N1 shots. If I had time, I'd probably look into it. My gut feeling is that statistically they shouldn't take a shot since there are entirely way more town than scum, but in practice, the ratio is beneficial to town. Same as on your site.

But personally, based on the dozens of games I've played I wouldn't include a vig in any setup I design. The role is powerful and too swingy. How much advantage and disadvantage the town gets from the role is entirely dependent on who happens to randomly receive the role.

A lot of setup designers try to mitigate that wild variance by putting limits on the role. Such as reducing the number of shots it can take (1-shot Vigilante - only has one bullet during the entire game).

[Leucosticte]

I'm not sure if any analysis has been done here about the accuracy rating of vigs for N1 shots. If I had time, I'd probably look into it. My gut feeling is that statistically they shouldn't take a shot since there are entirely way more town than scum, but in practice, the ratio is beneficial to town. Same as on your site.

But personally, based on the dozens of games I've played I wouldn't include a vig in any setup I design. The role is powerful and too swingy. How much advantage and disadvantage the town gets from the role is entirely dependent on who happens to randomly receive the role.

A lot of setup designers try to mitigate that wild variance by putting limits on the role. Such as reducing the number of shots it can take (1-shot Vigilante - only has one bullet during the entire game).

Yeah, over on Werewolv.es, the militia has only one bullet for the whole game. I think part of the reason for including the militia as a core role may be that the games are on a 24-hour (12-hour day, 12-hour night) cycle, and some players just show up for maybe 20 minutes and then are gone for the day; so a situation could arise where there isn't enough time to get everyone to change their votes if some revelation (e.g. an unexpected counterclaim) happens at the 11th hour; and therefore the militia may just have to act during the night on his own initiative in those cases. Also, there's the kind of situation where it's a 4-player endgame, and you know Player B is trustworthy, but aren't sure which of Player C or D is scum; you could just lynch C and shoot D, and it would be a village win. (You wouldn't want to just No Lynch because then the scum could kill Player B in the night.)

Anyway -- what ended up happening was, when I did a N1 vig, I got taken to task pretty harshly, which I think is their normal practice for dealing with people who make what they consider dumb plays. And I suspect this is because it's a small site, and they have experts in the same games as beginners and just generally sucky and/or low-effort players. So, the experts get annoyed when weaker players mess up their game.

What they probably should do, when they became able to, is have expert-only games where those with more experience, higher win-rate, etc. can play against those who are at their same level of skill. But I think if anything, they're starting to de-emphasize win-rates, because they removed that data from their statistics page.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I’m honestly curious if the 7 “yes” voters were actually serious or just trolling.

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah, over on Werewolv.es, the militia has only one bullet for the whole game. I think part of the reason for including the militia as a core role may be that the games are on a 24-hour (12-hour day, 12-hour night) cycle, and some players just show up for maybe 20 minutes and then are gone for the day; so a situation could arise where there isn't enough time to get everyone to change their votes if some revelation (e.g. an unexpected counterclaim) happens at the 11th hour; and therefore the militia may just have to act during the night on his own initiative in those cases. Also, there's the kind of situation where it's a 4-player endgame, and you know Player B is trustworthy, but aren't sure which of Player C or D is scum; you could just lynch C and shoot D, and it would be a village win. (You wouldn't want to just No Lynch because then the scum could kill Player B in the night.)

Anyway -- what ended up happening was, when I did a N1 vig, I got taken to task pretty harshly, which I think is their normal practice for dealing with people who make what they consider dumb plays. And I suspect this is because it's a small site, and they have experts in the same games as beginners and just generally sucky and/or low-effort players. So, the experts get annoyed when weaker players mess up their game.

Yeah, that strategy sounds right. If you have only 1 shot, then you should maximize the results. Every community has their style and quirks. With shorter days (compared to ours), then their arguments kinda make sense. If they can only play a few minutes a day, they may enjoy our style more because several RL days can go by in every phase.

But everytime there is an agreed-upon "best practice", then the scum (or werewolves in your case) are developing ways to best counter the best practice. It's always important to constantly challenge the status quo ideas of "this is the best way to play".

Generally I've found "experts only" games to be boring. New players and wild cards add error and chaos which good town can hunt in and scum can take advantage of.