Absolutely not; shooting N1 is usually their best move.
I wrote a couple paragraphs then realized I was just saying the exact same thing Hoopla did.
Can I see those 'vigs don't help winrate' stats? In addition to what Hoopla mentioned about some shots being used wrong, I'm guessing those games counted vigs as a significant town power role when balancing their setups, in which case the takeaway is closer to 'adding a vig and removing a cop doesn't change winrate much,' which I find believable. "Is cop or vig a stronger town PR?" is a much more reasonable question than 'are vigs pro-town.'
Should a vig who shoots N1 be Modkilled?
- Llamarble
-
Llamarble
- Llamarble
-
Llamarble Mafia Scum
- Llamarble
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3582
- Joined: May 2, 2010
In post 40, Yosarian2 wrote:
Cop targeting two town >> vig targeting two town
Cop targeting 1 scum and 1 town >> a vig targeting one scum and one town
Cop targeting two scum is probably about the same as a vig targeting two scum. Vig might be slightly better, but town really just wins either way.
1. One of the townies the vig shot is a townie the scum would have gotten to nightkill, but yes, the cop is definitely better here.
2. This is a slight win for the cop. The vig traded a lynch / NK cycle for a dead scum and a dead town. The cop will make sure the same thing happens and have the innocent going forward.
3. With cop the town will need to use 2 lynches on the scum whereas the vig essentially traded 1 lynch / NK cycle for 2 dead scum. Vig clearly wins here.
The cop comes out slightly ahead on these, but vigs are more robust:
If scum shoot a vig, the vig generally still can accomplish something that night.
Vigs are stronger claims since they can prove they did something when nobody else claims the shot.
Cop innocents can get shot before the cop gets to claim them.
A carelessly played cop can die with unclaimed, uncrumbed results.
And when the vig gets a free mylo->lylo shot, that is an enormous win for town.- Llamarble
-
Llamarble Mafia Scum
- Llamarble
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3582
- Joined: May 2, 2010
In post 75, Yosarian2 wrote:In post 64, The Fonz wrote:In post 58, Hoopla wrote:In post 33, chamber wrote:Highly suspect Vig is not only stronger than cop, but enough stronger that your question isn't actually all that good either.
It's a decent question. Vigs significantly outperform Cops in 3:9 setups, but in 3:10's Cops are slightly outperforming Vigs. I think the larger the game, the more beneficial Cops are, perhaps up until a certain point (20+?) where having a Vig is probably better to cull numbers before people get bored of the game and can't use all the extra information anyway.
Odds vs evens. The vig in the 12p game gets what is effectively a free shot, and so at worst can confirm himself without costing the town a lynch. Since town only gets three mislynches, the one extra town kill is worth a lot more. The vig in the 13p game costs a lynch with the very first shot.
Also, since vigs are so incredibly swingy and random, they help the town a lot more in setups where town has a very low chance of winning. 3 v 9 setups are notoriously badly balanced in favor of scum and against the town; anything that adds a random factor can only help. I mean, even adding a SK to that setup seems to help the town, statistically, crazy as that is, because anything that makes those setups more random creates more ways for an otherwise mostly doomed town to luck out.
The more balanced a setup is, the more cop>vig.
Vigs are swingy and random in the same way that extra lynches are swingy and random.
I think we just have a different notion of the relative value of a vigshot compared to a lynch. - Llamarble
Copyright © MafiaScum. All rights reserved.
- Llamarble