Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[Mr. Flay]

Spoiler: backstory/data/old threads

Newbie Setup (wiki link)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22564 (current data)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17119
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13969 (LOTS of older data)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13893
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13224
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4846
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9942 (pretty much everything else from earlier, summed up by Adel in the first post)

Okay, we don't HAVE to change the setup again. But I think it's worth looking at it in a slightly different way this time.

Instead of trying to come up with a single foreverbest Semi-Open setup like F11 or C9 or 2of4, I think we should take the 'chunks' of those setups that are usable and combine them into a roster than the Newbie List Mod can PICK FROM and assign to a game moderator.

Assumptions going into this thread:

1. 2:X Mountainous is never going to be a GOOD setup for Newbies. They might win it occasionally, but it will be by accident.
   
2. Conversely, there should always be at least 5 Vanilla Townies in the game
   
3. That assumes that we're sticking with a 9p setup, which I think is best.
   
4. List Mod MUST assign the setup. Whether that's random or according to the astrological tables, I don't really care, but the latest data shows that after ten years, we're still not able to reliably randomize semiopens.
   
5. It's probably best to avoid any explicit Mafia-Team-is-X-Y-so-they-know-Town-is-A-B-CCCCC setup options, but I'm willing to hear arguments otherwise.

What am I missing for baseline assumptions? Do we aim for a 50-55% Town EV?

[Mr. Flay]

Oh, and obviously singersigner gets final say on what happens, I just wanted to get the ball rolling in a more organized fashion than usual.

[Xalxe]

I recall way back when (may have been lost) the idea was proposed of having a roster of several different setups (as opposed to just one variable setup), which I like. I think that keeps interest, both for experienced players who don't want to play the same setup repeatedly as an SE/IC, and as a mod who gets a bit bored with "oh which variation is it this time." Additionally, that introduces newbies to the concept that some queues (Open, Micro) have multiple setups to choose from. While I don't think newbies or anybody but the List Mod should be able to choose the setup they want to play, it offers variety and interest and etc.

And that's my only post here because setup design is so far out of my league.

[Magister Ludi]

I had two prelim questions about the newbie games.

1. Are themeing things precluded entirely? i.e. giving everyone flavorful names but regular roles
2. What is this site even shooting for with the newbie games? Teaching? Fun? Even winning percentage? Or a mix of two or three?

[SleepyKrew]

I think it would be fine if Doc/Townie was dropped and the Cop in Cop/Doc was Macho.

[Mr. Flay]

Are themeing things precluded entirely? i.e. giving everyone flavorful names but regular roles

Death scene flavor is GREAT, encouraged, etc, subject to the normal rules about mods not passing on information. Role PM flavor is extremely limited, in that it shouldn't be based on source material, shouldn't distort or make in any way possible to mistake what your role is, nor should it inadvertently create Named Townies. So "You are Sergio of the Camorra Family, here to take over this small town" is probably fine. "Doc Williams of Tinytown" is okay, but kinda pointless. "Neville Longbottom, Gryffindor Townie" is Right Out.

singer can clarify this answer, of course, but Newbie Games#Moderators is pretty clear.

What is this site even shooting for with the newbie games? Teaching? Fun? Even winning percentage? Or a mix of two or three?

Others can correct/expand on this, but when I ran the Newbie Queue, it was a combination of weeding out flakers and those who were going to hate the site meta, introducing true newbies to the mechanics in a small manageable (fun) game setup, and having a reasonable chance at winning for either faction. I think factional balance is actually the least important of the three, but it's usually the thing cited in wanting to change the setup, so YMMV.

[Quilford]

I had two prelim questions about the newbie games.

1. Are themeing things precluded entirely? i.e. giving everyone flavorful names but regular roles
2. What is this site even shooting for with the newbie games? Teaching? Fun? Even winning percentage? Or a mix of two or three?

I can't really answer 1 for sure, but for 2 I'd definitely argue fun and even winning percentage. What's the point of teaching a newbie how to play at MS if they're not going to want to play?

[Quilford]

I think JK9 is a pretty good Open setup, I think however that it's best to have a variable Open setup for the Newbies, and the scum should have some sort of PR.

So if we could model off JK9, that'd be cool!

[Mr. Flay]

I think however that it's best to have a variable Open setup for the Newbies

Why?

[Quilford]

just to be clear, i meant if the setup is open, it should also be variable

i can't really put into words why. i think it probably discourages lots of setup spec/discussion, and is generally more interesting

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't think JK9 would make a good Newbie set-up anyway - if newbscum blows up D1 and gets himself lynched, it's going to be painful and drawn out (or an easy romp through the park for the town if the remaining scum doesn't realize what he's dealing with).

I still like my previous suggestions (but I'll think some more about it):
2of3:
2 of {Cop + Mafia Rolecop, Jailkeeper + Godfather, VT + Goon}

Revised 2of3:
Town gets 2 of {Cop, Jailkeeper, Vanilla Townie} + 5 VTs.
If Town has 1 PR, then Scum gets 1 of {Rolecop, 1-Shot Strongman}; if Town has both PRs, then Scum also gets both PRs.

[Quilford]

/shrug

I really like your Revised 2of3, but you really need another Town PR that can be chosen.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Roleblock/Neighborize/Bodyguard JoaT?

(With the neighborizing doubling as friendly neighbor by design.)

[Quilford]

Yeesh. Surely there's a simpler role.

[Vi]

What am I missing for baseline assumptions? Do we aim for a 50-55% Town EV?

Too high - you're saying Town is as likely to win as not by rolling dice. What you want is an even EV across all setups.

1. Are themeing things precluded entirely? i.e. giving everyone flavorful names but regular roles

Yes, or at least I would argue as much for Newbie games - Mr. Flay's naming scheme is okay IMO for Normals.

2. What is this site even shooting for with the newbie games? Teaching? Fun? Even winning percentage? Or a mix of two or three?

Teaching and keeping potential flakers out of the other queues. "Fun" is highly subjective and a semi-open filled with newbies doesn't qualify for a lot of people.

Revised 2of3:
Town gets 2 of {Cop, Jailkeeper, Vanilla Townie} + 5 VTs.
If Town has 1 PR, then Scum gets 1 of {Rolecop, 1-Shot Strongman}; if Town has both PRs, then Scum also gets both PRs.

Nothing immediately stands out as a deal-breaker, though four power roles in a nine-player game is kind of high given the usual. I'd be willing to see it tested.

[Mr. Flay]

Too high - you're saying Town is as likely to win as not by rolling dice. What you want is an even EV across all setups.

Since Towns have NEVER won as likely as not by rolling dice across this entire site (even the broken Original Newbie), I am not sure I understand your argument here. But I can agree with aiming for an even EV.

just to be clear, i meant if the setup is open, it should also be variable

i can't really put into words why. i think it probably discourages lots of setup spec/discussion, and is generally more interesting

To be clear, I'm not saying that the Setup chosen should be in the first post of the game; only that instead of going for a holy grail of One True Variable Setup, we list 5 or 6 current possibilities (or just don't list them out at all, but have the list on the wiki or something), and go from there.

I'm not sure why you see setup speculation as a bad thing. It's a major feature of the site.

[IceGuy]

2 Goons, 1 JK, 6 VTs and 1 Goon, 1 Rolecop, 1 JK, 1 Cop, 5 VTs.

Listmod picks one.

[Mr. Flay]

It's probably best to avoid any explicit Mafia-Team-is-X-Y-so-they-know-Town-is-A-B-CCCCC setup options, but I'm willing to hear arguments otherwise.

Extrapolating after sleep, it's probably useful to say that no single PR flip should reveal the entire setup. So any given Power Role, Town or Scum, should be in at least two options. Sound fair?

[borkjerfkin]

I feel like a significant number of people on this site feel that cop is horridly overpowered. This could be a good opportunity to shift the site meta away from setups with that role by not using it here.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We've gathered enough data over the years to conclude that cops are definitely not overpowered.

(And it's a very useful role to use in designing 9p set-ups since its power doesn't depend on whether there's 1 scum left or not which makes roles like Tracker, Roleblocker and Jailkeeper so annoyingly swingy in 2 scum set-ups.)

[borkjerfkin]

Good to know. I had not heard the other side of that argument.

[Aj The Epic]

Throw a GF/Goon v Cop, Jailkeeper, 5 towns?
And then inversely, GF, Goon, Macho cop, doc, 5 towns

Realistically, I think something like this is best done by a table where all possible role/setup combos are in place, and then we just stop the ones that are too strong (the double GF games) and too weak (double cop games) for scum.

[gorckat]

Like this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4144793

I think that idea works well long-term- problem setups are easily identified after, say, 10 runs and can be cycled out as needed.

It also creates a 'Newbie Normal' environment where roles come from an expected pool, but in uncertain quantity.

The trick is to seed the table with the right roles and to limit the Mountainous setups for either extreme rarity or to never occur.

ADD: This might just be a long-hand way of writing out the 2of3 concept, but I feel like this long way captured potential setups that couldn't happen in 2of3.

[StrangerCoug]

I kind of feel a bit insulted by Mr. Flay's implication that mods cannot be expected to actually randomize what roles are in a semi-open. By modding a semi-open, you agree to run whatever random.org gives you. If we're

THAT

concerned about whether or not assignments are random, have singersigner set up a reasonably foolproof system that proves the setup is randomly generated. Something like this:

1. First-time newbie mods set up a system of how they are going to determine what roles in the game—say, if we keep 2of4, the terms "cop", "doc", "JK", and "VT" go in the list randomizer and we pick the top two that come up.
   
2. singersigner approves the method.
   
3. We give her a screenshot of the result with a timestamp from
   AFTER
   her approval.
   
4. Once that's taken care of, we agree on how player assignments will work. I write my role PMs so that the names are replaced with the placeholders PLAYER_01, PLAYER_02, PLAYER_03, and so on as necessary.
   
5. Again, give her a screenshot of the random.org assignments from after she approved the system.

It's not perfect—someone who doesn't like the role/player assignments can just rerun the generator, for example—but I am against newbie games going to fully open setups just because some mods aren't playing by the rules.

As for ideas for a new newbie setup, I would be the wrong person to ask for a hard setup, but in my opinion newbie games suffer if they're needlessly complex. No setups that take longer than two or three sentences to explain should be allowed, and any permitted deviations from the basic investigative/protective/blocking roles should be allowed. (My main beef against a vigilante being allowed in a newbie stems more from the small game size than the likelihood that it'll be given to an inexperienced player.)

[gorckat]

random.org will give you whatever you want.

You can reload your list and randomize again (Back button avoids the page showing the number of times reloaded).

With a table system of X number of setups, it is trivial to shoot the mod "Run setup A" when they are given the game assignment.