Assorted Excellent Idea Mafias

[Xdaamno]

Just to keep Mafia Discussion updated on some fairly British-related mafia developments:

Greater Idea Mafia was a goofy setup brilliantly invented by ChannelDelibird at the UK Easter meet, using a deck of ~100 custom cards. Each player draws two cards from the deck; they choose one to keep and play as, discarding the other. Once the mod has checked there exists at least one anti-town role in the game, all factional/partnered roles are informed of their partners. Immediately on Day 1, all players flip their discarded roles - this information is typically sufficient to completely skip the random-vote stage.

We played this

a lot

at the meet, and fell in love - balance is obviously not guaranteed, but that's part of the fun. We kept expanding the deck from the bottom-up whenever someone thought of a role, and ended up with a lot of funny situations. The Skype mafia group is still playing this a couple times a week.

Some folks have recently taken to Greatest Idea Mafia, in which three cards are drawn. You can choose one card to inform your alignment and another for your ability. I'm not an expert on this game, though, myself.

Since my university exams finished today, I took up the task of designing a top-down version of Greater Idea, which is now up on the wiki as Cracking Idea Mafia. The intention was to maximize both the balance and the goofiness. I had a few principles in mind, such as avoiding splintering the anti-townies too heavily, and allowing for the possibility of players actually figuring out what's going on. Feel free to take a look.

[Katsuki]

My how Great Idea mafia has evolved.

[kuribo]

I prefer Bad Idea.


Sup TDK.

[Fenchurch]

A few questions occurred to me today about modding the Greater Idea deck. Actually I might even have asked these before but if so I can't remember the answers.

1) In end-game situations, does a Judas/Saulus that is currently aligned with the mafia count towards a mafia majority?

2) If a game started where everyone picks town, apart from a Saulus, would that count as having an anti-town faction; would the game begin?

3) If there is a scum majority in end-game but there are still town killing powers (eg. vengeful, vig, dayvig, supersaint), do the scum auto-win?

I'd assume it's No/No/No, but I'm not sure, especially the middle one.

[Patrick]

Interesting, as I think I'd lean towards yes for all of them.

1) A mafia aligned Judas or Saulus in my mind would be able to endgame a single town player for the win, so I'd expect it to count towards a mafia majority in the case of larger numbers. There's probably not much precedent for it though, so I wouldn't mind a different rule.

2) A Saulus is a scum player, and to me should warrant starting a game, even though in that case it's very likely the game will end in a win for everyone when he gets lynched. It's possible that a vig would kill the Saulus, meaning he would lose, or even that he survives to 2p, in which case only he wins.

3) I've always taken a scum majority against town to mean a scum win regardless of what roles are left alive. That would be my policy for modding a forum game, but again, people differ. Rather than forcing the mod to determine on the fly whether the town can conceivably win, and going through a painful game day that ends in a no-lynch because scum can't be lynched, I'd rather have a blanket rule that gives scum a win if they have majority over the town. If rival scum factions exist, that's a different story.

[ChannelDelibird]

1) Definitely. Not counting towards the majority seems a bit cruel and, frankly, it'd annoy me if I were playing and the game dragged out longer than it needed to even when there was a majority of one scum win condition left.

2) Yeah, I'd start the game. The Saulus has to judge whether or not they have any buddies and if it's worth claiming. I think the game would be over fairly quickly and it wouldn't be particularly good but I'd still start it.

3) I thought longest about this one. If, assuming scum kill every night, it was still possible for town to eliminate them all, I think I'd want to leave it running. If there were killing roles left but a town win would require the mafia choosing to no-kill, I'd want to call it. That possibility kinda makes me want to just agree with Patrick and say call it a blanket rule but I'm honestly not sure.

[mykonian]

yeah, I disagree on 3. If town has a shot, the game should go on. It's a rare case anyway, where town is more potent then scum, but if it happens I'd like town to have the chance of gaining an epic victory.

Basic case, 5p lylo, 1 vig, 1 doc, 1 vt and 2 goons. If nobody claims, the vt gets lynched, I'd like the game to go on. If scum shoots the wrong one, and the doc protects the right one, town can still win. Similar with bp's etc.

[Patrick]

What would you suggest in the case of a single goon against protown roles such as vig, dayvig, pgo or vengeful townie?

Edit: in a 1 v 1 endgame situation.

[SleepyKrew]

Rocks fall, everybody dies.

[ChannelDelibird]

What would you suggest in the case of a single goon against protown roles such as vig, dayvig, pgo or vengeful townie?

Edit: in a 1 v 1 endgame situation.

Heart says if the dayvig or PGO haven't used their ability yet, they kill the mafia by Rule of Cool either that day or the next night, with every other case a mafia win that day.

Head says you should probably make a general rule that if mafia start a day with 50+% of the town, unopposed by other scum factions, they win.

[mykonian]

What would you suggest in the case of a single goon against protown roles such as vig, dayvig, pgo or vengeful townie?

Edit: in a 1 v 1 endgame situation.

Yes, I know, that's where the whole "you win when you are the only faction alive or nothing can stop that from happening" thing breaks down. Just, it's rather lame to sacrifice the opportunity for an epic comeback to have an airtight win condition. I know it's ugly to have a separate rule govern endgame situations specifically to resolve a problem certain roles cause, but if that's what it takes to have a couple of really cool games.

[ferretlover]

my personal wincon for town is

Win Condition: All threats are neutralized while at least one Town-Aligned player is alive.

[Cheery Dog]

3) If there is a scum majority in end-game but there are still town killing powers (eg. vengeful, vig, dayvig, supersaint), do the scum auto-win?

If it's a day vig, yes, otherwise no unless there's also a protective role for the town.

[quadz08]

Even with a protective role, the best that can happen is 3:3 forever. Scum wins there.

With a vig and no protective roles, it goes 3:3, 2:2, 1:1 and scum wins endgames. Scum wins there.

If you have a vig AND a protective role / roleblocker, town could potentially win still, so I'd consider playing on in that scenario, but it's fair unlikely that a town with a living vig and doc/rb is either not going to be in a 50/50 situation, or more likely, scum has PRs that negate them (Strongman, RB, etc). It's good enough to call a blanket rule, I think.

[Mr. Flay]

Uhh, there is a difference between "scum majority" and 3:3, at least the way I do math.

And if there is EVER a chance that Town can win without scum deciding to no-kill or something equally against their WC, you have to let them play it out. Anything else is unfair to both sides.

[quadz08]

Oh derp. >_>

Well, it also depends on what the scum wincon technically is. Is it "Only your faction is alive or nothing can prevent the following" or "you have 50% of living players?" I've seen both.

[ferretlover]

It's supposed to be the first one, but a little different.

Win Condition: All players of different factions are dead.

is my go-to because if there is nobody alive at the end of the game then scum wins.

[Fenchurch]

Thanks for the answers everyone! I think I will definitely go with Yes & Yes on my first 1 & 2 in future, the reasons given make sense.

As for 3...

Uhh, there is a difference between "scum majority" and 3:3, at least the way I do math.

But 3:3 can force a deadline no-lynch, so in any scenario I can think of it can be treated the same, can't it?

And if there is EVER a chance that Town can win without scum deciding to no-kill or something equally against their WC, you have to let them play it out. Anything else is unfair to both sides.

In the past I have always tried to calculate whether town still have a shot at winning (usually by franticly consulting with dead players), but it can be quite difficult to do on the fly in a live game, and I always worry I might make a mistake. And I don't want to pause the game whilst I do it, because that would give away information, so I usually proceed into the next phase and let play continue whilst I work it out, which leads to an awkward thing with people needlessly making decisions or actions when in fact the game is over.

And is a mafia majority always a guaranteed win for mafia if play continued? If the mod didn't end the game; the mafia would assume there is a vengeful townie/supersaint/vigilante remaining and play cautiously, conceivably even to the extent of bussing; which could still result in a mafia loss. And even if those roles aren't in the game, town could want to fakeclaim them, with the same effect. I guess bussing could be considered against the mafia wincon in that situation, but is it that different to bussing in any other situation?

So anyway, I find it tempting to go with Patrick's simple majority-wins rule regardless of roles; but as the consensus seems to be in favour of working out the possible role-related scenarios, I will continue to try to do this in future.

And, another Judas/Saulus question.

4) Should a mafia-aligned Judas/Saulus show up as Mafia to a Cop? And/or a Bloodhound?

[mykonian]

which leads to an awkward thing with people needlessly making decisions or actions when in fact the game is over.

This isn't that awkward. Either it's night and it takes only 2 minutes after which your setup generally gets easier, or it's day and scum-ces will tell you his faction has won (again).

[Mr. Flay]

which leads to an awkward thing with people needlessly making decisions or actions when in fact the game is over.

This isn't that awkward. Either it's night and it takes only 2 minutes after which your setup generally gets easier, or it's day and scum-ces will tell you his faction has won (again).

This.

As for 3:3 vs. 3:2 it makes a huge difference for things like Vigilantes, Doctors, etc. Also 3:2:1 is not an endgame if there are two killing roles that can reduce the 3 Mafia to 2, or 1. Again, if there's ANY reasonable way to pull out a win or even draw, you have to let the players take it.

quadz: the 50% thing is a shortcut that should die a fiery death, because it's led to people call 3:3 games with Town killing+protective roles before.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

4) Should a mafia-aligned Judas/Saulus show up as Mafia to a Cop? And/or a Bloodhound?

No. Yes.

[Patrick]

Yes. Yes.

=p

[ChannelDelibird]

Yes to both.

[ferretlover]

Yes, yes

wait whats a bloodhound role

[Fenchurch]

wait whats a bloodhound role

It's in the Greater Idea deck, and was created because Greater Idea has multiple scum factions: it's an investigative role for all anti-town. Receives result "town" or "not-town".