Hydras in mini normals

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Zachrulez
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:37 pm

I just watched a player get pulled out of their sign up for a mini normal game because they expressed a desire not to play with hydras. This bothered me, since I have a long held notion (probably unexpressed to this point.) that hydras shouldn't even really exist in normal games. (They don't occupy a player slot in a normal way.) Have we reached a point where we're outright favoring hydras in games over individual players regardless of the game type? I do think there needs to be a line for hydras, and I think generally that line is drawn with normal, newbie games. The remedy proposed for the player was to sign up for the next game, but what if a hydra ins to that one too, and the game after that?

I probably feel the same way about hydras in large normals given that they're much less complex then theme games generally. I do think that players should have refuge from being forced to play with hydras at least in the confines of normal setups.

I'm pretty sure we don't allow hydras in newbies and for good reason. If this is wrong feel free to correct me on that, but if it is wrong, then be prepared for me to rant about that too. :D

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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:38 pm

^good posting
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:40 pm

I was under the impression it was a mod-dependent thing. The mod can disallow hydras if they feel they are not meant for the game environment, but can also allow it. (Outside newbies.)
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:42 pm

In post 2, mastin2 wrote:I was under the impression it was a mod-dependent thing. The mod can disallow hydras if they feel they are not meant for the game environment, but can also allow it. (Outside newbies.)


That's the way it works now. I think they should be banned for normal games entirely though. Themes are fair game.

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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:49 pm

I can see the argument for minis, but for larges, I disagree strongly. Larges these day are HUGE. Nearly every damn large game is breaking a largest-X record these days. Largest D1, Largest Day other than 1, Largest overall, etc. Themes are the focus, but even in Normals, HUUUUUUUUUUGE games exist, that're 200+ pages. A lot of players can't do that solo. I'd argue that it's easier to get a large normal running with hydras than it is without them.
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:50 pm

I do think that it's about time that the site has established some hard-and-fast rules for hydras, but I'm unsure that I agree with banning them from normals completely is the correct option. At the very least, I think Larges should still allow hydrae.

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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:51 pm

My feelings about them being banned from large normals are less strong, but I think they should be out of mini normals.

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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:57 pm

The preference is mod-based.

The player was pulled out of the game because he signed up after the hydra did; it is a matter of chronological priority in sign-ups.

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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:06 pm

In post 4, mastin2 wrote:A lot of players can't do that solo.

This is terrible mindset to be in and you should feel terrible.

Your hydra partner isn't some backup player that picks up the pieces when you flake from a game.

Both hydra players should read the entire game, and discuss fully before making posts that have game content.

Yes, it should take more time and effort to play as a hydra than it does as a solo.
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:11 pm

In post 7, Tierce wrote:The preference is mod-based.

The player was pulled out of the game because he signed up after the hydra did; it is a matter of chronological priority in sign-ups.


I get that the preference being mod-based is the current policy, but I think it needs to be examined, paticularly when it comes to mini normals. Many of the mods who mod mini normals are doing so for the first time and might not have even given as much of a thought to the idea of hydras signing up for their games or even how they'd want to handle it. I'm sure it's the case presently that a player has no idea what the mod's policy is for a mini normal game (Probably holds true in general as well.) on whether or not they allow hydras and that's something at the very least I think should change not only for mini normals but with all moderated games in general.

In post 8, FakeGod wrote:
In post 4, mastin2 wrote:A lot of players can't do that solo.

This is terrible mindset to be in and you should feel terrible.

Your hydra partner isn't some backup player that picks up the pieces when you flake from a game.

Both hydra players should read the entire game, and discuss fully before making posts that have game content.

Yes, it should take more time and effort to play as a hydra than it does as a solo.


Hydras can be played in various ways. Sotty and I have done it the way you've said, and we've also done it to reduce our individual burden in a game we both want to play, so that one of us can focus when the other is busy and vice versa. We'll both run posts by each other and post individually, depending on our mood.

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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:20 pm

The mods are aware they should sign off about their hydra preferences in the queue thread, Zach. I inform them of such when I tell them that their game is up for sign-ups, though the moderators are not required to state it openly. Furthermore, the players can simply ask in the thread if hydras are allowed or not.

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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:29 pm

A hydra partner is a very strong weapon to have at your disposal.

It is another player who has looked your role PM and shares your win con; someone who can be absolutely trusted. (do you know how rare that is in mafia?)

I don't know why hydras on this site degenerated into a "buddy who picks up the slack when I'm busy", but in no way they should be simply be treated as a normal player.
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:32 pm

In post 10, Tierce wrote:The mods are aware they should sign off about their hydra preferences in the queue thread, Zach. I inform them of such when I tell them that their game is up for sign-ups, though the moderators are not required to state it openly. Furthermore, the players can simply ask in the thread if hydras are allowed or not.


It could be right in there in the game signups for a particular game. Like right under the title of the game there could be a little spot that says Hydras: Yes/no

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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:35 pm

In post 11, FakeGod wrote:A hydra partner is a very strong weapon to have at your disposal.

It is another player who has looked your role PM and shares your win con; someone who can be absolutely trusted. (do you know how rare that is in mafia?)

I don't know why hydras on this site degenerated into a "buddy who picks up the slack when I'm busy", but in no way they should be simply be treated as a normal player.


Actually when Mith ran California trilogy, that was one of the things he actively encouraged getting a hydra partner for if memory serves me correctly. (The game also had a modkill mechanism for inactivity so that did necessitate having someone else to post if you couldn't.) Of course that was a large theme game, and hydras were not commonplace at that point.

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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:45 pm

@Tierce:

I think that's good, but potentially creates another problem if the majority of games are good with hydras (which I assume they are- could be totes off base), then players not wanting to play with hydras have to watch like a hawk for games that fit their taste. I suppose they could check the queue for mods with no hydras and pre-in, though.

But I think rolling back one step is more important first, because I had forgotten I wanted to initiate this thread myself a couple months ago:

Are hydras Normal?

As an off the cuff thought experiment, would you consider a game with 13 hydras Normal? (Assume it formed organically and was not advertised as a game for hydras- I believe that was shown to be not normal/violating player limits.)

EDIT: Duh- forgot to answer my own question. How rude.

I don't think Hydras are Normal because they require a change in how you interact with them.

-You can't press on them and try to force mistakes the same- one head can back off and tell a potential hot head partner to take a breather for a meat world day or two.
-Behavior changes between days aren't as indicative as a solo player because the other might be in the driver seat.
-You also have the potential to create a 'super slot' where you take a good gut player and a persuader- they cover the other's strenghts, and the gut player doesn't even have to post once in the game, just share reads and suggest pressure points.
Last edited by gorckat on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:55 pm

In post 14, gorckat wrote:@Tierce:

I think that's good, but potentially creates another problem if the majority of games are good with hydras (which I assume they are- could be totes off base), then players not wanting to play with hydras have to watch like a hawk for games that fit their taste. I suppose they could check the queue for mods with no hydras and pre-in, though.

But I think rolling back one step is more important first, because I had forgotten I wanted to initiate this thread myself a couple months ago:


That was my concern when I saw this. I don't actually know how prominent hydras are but I don't think I've played a normal in recent memory that didn't have any.

In post 14, gorckat wrote:Are hydras Normal?

As an off the cuff thought experiment, would you consider a game with 13 hydras Normal? (Assume it formed organically and was not advertised as a game for hydras- I believe that was shown to be not normal/violating player limits.)


When I considered the question some time ago, my answer was no.

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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:02 pm

Hydras are obviously not normal.

They have an advantage over a normal player.
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:05 pm

^

They're harder to read, and easier to defend when they contradict themselves. "Oh, that was my other head talking, we haven't had a chance to talk." You can't pull that off as a solo player.

Plus imo they reduce the replacement pool but that's probably another topic.
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:10 pm

I don't mod and rarely play normals, but: this seems entirely blown out of proportion.

Hydra signed up for game, mod allowed it as mod allowed hydras.

Player signed up for games, said, "I don't want to play with hydras."

Player was told that the hydra signed up first.

End of story.

This exact same mechanism would occur if two players that don't like each other and don't want to play with each other both signed up for the same game.

Pulling hydras into it is just conflating two issues. I get that you don't like hydras, Zach, but trying to spin this as an issue for your crusade to remove them from Normals is disingenuous at best.

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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:14 pm

In post 18, Magua wrote:I don't mod and rarely play normals, but: this seems entirely blown out of proportion.

Hydra signed up for game, mod allowed it as mod allowed hydras.

Player signed up for games, said, "I don't want to play with hydras."

Player was told that the hydra signed up first.

End of story.

This exact same mechanism would occur if two players that don't like each other and don't want to play with each other both signed up for the same game.


Well he said no hydras please and then was removed from the queue without the option to out himself... but yeah ok.

In post 18, Magua wrote:Pulling hydras into it is just conflating two issues. I get that you don't like hydras, Zach, but trying to spin this as an issue for your crusade to remove them from Normals is disingenuous at best.


If you think I don't like hydras, you really don't know my history with the site. (I've actually played many hydra games in every queue except for newbies, mini normals, and large normals.) I just don't think they belong in normal games and part of the heart of the issue is in fact whether hydras actually should be considered normal.

Let's not freak out on the hydra support end of things here either. Banning them from normals would not endanger their existence on the site. (Heck I'm even willing to mod otherwise normal games in the theme queue if people really want to hydra in those kind of games.) They are quite popular and will remain so regardless of what is or is not done here.

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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:22 pm

Saying, "I don't think hydras should be in Normals" is fine (I don't agree, but fine). Saying, "Hydras are killing people in the streets sign up queues and taking the jobs slots of true blooded Americans non-hydra players" is where the dissonance comes in for me.

I like the system that says it's mod preference.

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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:35 pm

In post 20, Magua wrote:Saying, "I don't think hydras should be in Normals" is fine (I don't agree, but fine). Saying, "Hydras are killing people in the streets sign up queues and taking the jobs slots of true blooded Americans non-hydra players" is where the dissonance comes in for me.

I like the system that says it's mod preference.


I don't see anywhere that I made the latter argument. I did make a point that it's probably difficult for players that dislike hydras to avoid them, and that's a point that I think does have some merit.

I'd actually be curious to see what the current ratio of games with hydras vs not is at present.

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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:41 pm

I'd argue that it's easier to get a large normal running with hydras than it is without them.


Doesn't doubling the number of players in a given slot actually facilitate the problem of really Large Normals?
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:04 pm

In post 22, Psyche wrote:
I'd argue that it's easier to get a large normal running with hydras than it is without them.


Doesn't doubling the number of players in a given slot actually facilitate the problem of really Large Normals?


The answer is probably yes and no. There are plenty of people capable of making 200+ posts per game day by their lonesome. But I don't think it's entirely coincidental that game threats started to explode in the wake of hydras becoming a common fixture.

I fully support the OP. Normal games (and the mini normal queue in particular) are a safe haven for players who want to avoid all kinds of shenanigans and I think hydras should fall under that.
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:31 pm

never cared for hydras...
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