Mastin Academy

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
mastin2
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:00 pm

(AKA, the "School of Mastin thought" on mafia.)

I've had a fair number of people following in my footsteps (asking "What Would Mastin Do?"), a few people call me a genius when it comes to the game, and/or asking to learn from the 'master' herself. I've even had a 'student' of mine "graduate", via surpassing me in his skill and talent. Not to mention, how I can apparently give people good advice and have always seen potential in users who often don't see their own.

I already do IC work (and sometimes IC outside of newbies :P), but I wanted to expand that a bit further and become, quite literally, a professor of mafia. (When I finish my mafia textbook, this'll be a whole lot easier a "course" to take. :P But since I'm a lazy procrastinator, I've not yet finished it.) I realize that things like this have been done before, but I'd like to take a stab at it with a Mastin spin.

What this thread is for:
Asking me advice on how to play the game of mafia, to give feedback to the players in general, and to critique specific games for emphasis of these.

A note:
Please keep questions on the game in general, as to not be specific to an ongoing game. If you want to ask a specific question about (or even related to) that game, write it down and ask after the game's already over.

What to ask:
Any question relating to the game. It can be anything from "Where do you look for scum?" to "How do you find town?" to "How do you break the RVS ice?" and so on and so forth. You got a question, I'll have an answer for you. Any question so long as it's not ongoing-game-specific will get as much elaboration as I can cram into the lesson.

(Note from the future:
Life sucks. I'm generally too overworked these days to review past games unless I was personally a part of them. I also have gained a bad track record in hydras of only loosely following the game. However, if you wish to hydra with me, then ask--if you make the account, send me the password, and also select a game, then I will generally accept your offer and help you for that game. Otherwise, I'm not much use, though if you invite me solo into a game then there's a 95% chance I'll say 'yes' and go in, and if you ask for a critique then I may be able to give one.)

How I'll help:
Note that my teaching style is incredibly personalized and intimate. (Not necessarily hands-on, but almost never completely hands-off, either.) If you're a complete stranger to me, I'm not going to track down your games to give advice. I'm instead going to try and play with you. From the start as two players, replacing into games you're in, and/or hydraing with you so that I BECOME familiar enough with you to be able to give that feedback. (Hydras give that advice more immediately, though.)

Just ask, and I'll do what I can.

Obviously, if I know you, I can already give that advice without the time delay, and will do so. If you want more detailed feedback, sure, I'll go through the process above, but only on your request. (My memory sucks for specifics, but is typically quite good for the generalities. Thus, why I won't do so by default.)

Note that I can always give more, but am kinda lazy. :P If you want me to go more in-depth, I'll do so. Just be aware that the more you ask of me, the longer it'll take me to give it.

Note for moderators:
You're not excluded from this! I'm more than happy to critique your setups and your modding practices. My process won't be as good as, say, zoraster's survey is, but it's better than nothing and is available at request. Just know it follows the same rules as above, and thus, will typically take some time for me to do.

A disclaimer:
If you're a better player (or moderator) than I am, chances are, I won't actually be able to help. :P I can give reminders, with occasional new tips, but at a certain stage, you evolve beyond my capability to help you, and you should be the one doing the teaching!

For instance, while it's theoretically possible for me to teach AngryPidgeon something, he already "graduated" and took my advice to heart, added his own spin, and IMPROVED it. I'm good at the game, and a great teacher--but I'm not the best. If I don't have much to say, it's a sign of your talent having bloomed with skill, and you've earned not only my respect, but also my admiration.

On Specific Games:
Note that I will give feedback on games that I'm not familiar with, but as with the above, my advice will be more accurate if I'm intimately familiar with the game. I'll analyze the setup and give an overview of each player, along with what you could do better in future games, and point out those general behaviors. Basically, this is a hybrid of the general theory questions I'll be answering, and the individualized coaching, tying it all together.

Grad School:
Just because you've "graduated" from my academy doesn't mean your mafia education is finished! The game evolves, the site evolves, players evolve, you evolve, and thus, the advice I give will also therefore evolve. You can ask me again to help, as many times as you'd like. It's a never-ending process of betterment. (But do note the above--I can try to help you, but if you're better than I am, it'll be much harder for me to actually do so.)


Spoiler: Students (when I was maintaining things better)
This section is basically a list of players I was actively working on helping.
  • Sakura Hana
  • notscience
  • Bulbazak
  • Lord Mhork
  • phokdapolees
  • Om
  • Kazekirimaru
  • SalmonellaDreams
  • Untrod Tripod (modding+playing)
  • Natirasha (modding+playing)
  • Jacob Savage (modding+playing)

Spoiler: General Learning Resources
Basically, a compilation of further reading material, and why you want to read it.
[LIST INCOMPLETE]
Last edited by mastin2 on Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:37 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:24 pm

Do you intend to charge for this?

Will there be uniforms at mastin academy?
:]

mastin2
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:31 pm

In post 1, Faraday wrote:Do you intend to charge for this?

Will there be uniforms at mastin academy?
Nah. It's completely free. It's for the betterment of the site and the players. You can't put a price on that. (Well, you COULD, but you don't. :P)

There's no requirement. Think of it as like Khan Academy. (That's Salman Khan. Not Kublai Khan. :P)
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!

Espeonage
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:37 pm

What are the best ways to organise blocs, both alignments?
Why does RVS suck so much, or why do I wish RVS didn't exist?
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You can't sit with us.

T-Bone
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:09 pm

How much hubris is required of one to earn a Ph. D in mafia?

Also, can I teach you how and when to bus so that you won't teach other people bad habits? :P
#TeamLizzy (or I will ban you)

"Playing in a Newbie game doesn't count" ~ PenguinPower, Feb 2019

phokdapolees
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:46 pm

I have one simple question: How do I scumhunt? Because I'm never really able to pinpoint scum as town myself, and have always just followed up on cases other people started.

Slaxx
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:31 pm

In post 1, Faraday wrote:Do you intend to charge for this?

Will there be uniforms at mastin academy?


If they are I hope they're kinky

Sakura Hana
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:33 pm

Where do I sign?
Please be nice to me

thiscantgowrong
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:57 pm

Consider me /in on this.

First question: what are some general tips for appearing to be town (and is there a difference in looking town when you are actually town and when you aren't)?

Natirasha
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:03 am

In post 7, Sakura Hana wrote:Where do I sign?

Just learn from the Nati School of Mafia, Sakura!

EDIT: But I have a design I wanna see you try to crack, Mastin, so if you're taking open requests, alright.
Last edited by Natirasha on Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lord Mhork
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:24 am

I'll audit this
Show

kuribo
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:22 am

I'd like to apply for professorship at this university

I am a double doctorate with PHDs in both Murder and Powerf***ing, as well as a Masters degree in Spamming.

I failed to obtain degrees in Logic or Casebuilding and my applicant paper for Walling was widely discredited
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Om
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:44 am

/In as a complete noob student. I don't have any specific question in mind but I would love to get tips etc to make my way from Newbies to big leagues where I did below average compared to the newbie I played last time when I was around.
Evil sometimes wears pleasant face.

mastin2
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:21 pm

As a note--I will be answering each mafia-related question in a separate post. I'll also give detailed feedback in separate posts. This post is mainly just a compilation of acknowledgements.
In post 7, Sakura Hana wrote:Where do I sign?
I'll take this as a request for me to give you feedback. I'll get to giving it in a later post, but for an appetizer, a reminder of what I said to you in Chain of Command is in order. :P You have a great process. You simply need to refine the conclusions. I would love to hydra with you some time, if you'd like a first-hand experience with me.

In post 8, thiscantgowrong wrote:Consider me /in on this.
Alright. Since I don't know you, a reminder that it'll take me a while to get to know you some more.

In post 9, Natirasha wrote:EDIT: But I have a design I wanna see you try to crack, Mastin, so if you're taking open requests, alright.
Well, I wasn't exactly planning on having this thread be for requesting reviews on future setups, but if that's what you mean by this, I'm more than happy to do so. I'll open that avenue up for anyone who wants it.

In post 10, Lord Mhork wrote:I'll audit this
I'll take that as a request for feedback, but as a warning, Mhork, you and I are similar enough that I might not be able to give you much advice.

In post 12, Om wrote:/In as a complete noob student. I don't have any specific question in mind but I would love to get tips etc to make my way from Newbies to big leagues where I did below average compared to the newbie I played last time when I was around.
You didn't do too terribly last game I had with you (well, replacing into a game where your slot shared my scum alignment), but all the same, I'll do what I can. I'll give you a free starter tip, though--newbies are geniuses. They exist outside the standard site meta, and thus, their way of viewing things is different from most. That might make their ideas more crazy, but it also makes them more immune to scum's influence, because the scum's typical methods of manipulation are far less effective against someone who doesn't get manipulated that way. :P When a newbie becomes a normal player, they actually become weaker because they've become more susceptible to that influence. Until I get around to doing you, try and go back to your newbie games, and find what made them better than your later games.

In post 4, T-Bone wrote:How much hubris is required of one to earn a Ph. D in mafia?
To get an Associates degree in mafia, you need to have a little bit of arrogance. To get a Bachelors, you actually need to tone it down a bit and discard the arrogance. To get a Masters, you need to show quite a bit of an ego. But to get a Doctorate, you need to actually find a balance between the two. :P

...To explain in non-joking terms, most decent players have a little bit of arrogance attached to them. In order for them to grow into good players, the first step is typically discarding that arrogance and trying to remove their normal biases in a game. That said, most of the great players I've met tend to go back into it, with some justification in having done so. But the best? The best players strike a balance between the two. They're humble enough to recognize their weaknesses in games and work to fix them (often by working with others if their reads are good, or knowing when to reassess their pushes if their charisma is good), but have the confidence needed to know their strengths. Someone who has no confidence in their ability is just as bad as someone who has too much hubris about their ability. The best players are the ones who know how strong they are, realistically, and have that analysis without bias. (For instance, I'm upper-mediocre overall. Depending on how many town/scum PMs I get in a year, I may tip to one side. To put this into game-related info, right now, I'm a good scum player and only mediocre town, but that's beginning to change again with my scumplay getting weaker and my townplay getting stronger.)

Also, as for the bussing, that's what this thread is for. (I'll add it to my resources section.)
My academy.
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Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!

mastin2
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:38 pm

In post 3, Espeonage wrote:What are the best ways to organise blocs, both alignments?
The best way to organize blocs as town is to not try and form blocs. :P

That sounds stupid. Surely, there's a place for townblocs in games, right? Yes. There is! But when I say "not try and form blocs", I mean not forcing their existence. The best townblocs I've seen are the townblocs that weren't formed strictly as townblocs. By which, I mean, they evolved naturally. The players inside the bloc didn't force the existence of the bloc. Heck, it's a rarity for them to have even called it a townbloc in the first place. Basically, as town, the best way to have a townbloc is to not interfere with the formation of a townbloc by wanting one.

If a townbloc forms, it will form. It might take more time than you would prefer, but it'll happen without interference if you let it. And when it does form? It'll be without the influence of scum (most likely), AND be harder for the scum to break up! Because instead of players working together because they forced themselves to work together, they're working together because they want to work together. Rather than it making sense to work together, they feel like they should be working together. That organic, natural, flowing townbloc is difficult to break for scum because it is the natural order of things and breaking said order is artificial. It's harder for the scum to be in, too, because they can't force their way into the townbloc, and instead, have to be integrated into it slowly and patiently. (A process most scum cannot--or, if they can, WILL not--give the time to.)

Inversely, the best way to organize a townbloc as scum is to make sure it's formed, preferably early. The earlier a townbloc is formed, the more likely it is scum have infiltrated it, and ALSO the easier it is to break. Because the bonds which tied the players together were weaker (thanks to having rushed the formation of said townbloc), the bonds are more easily shattered as well. Think of a townbloc like a friendship or even a relationship. If you go into one only having known the person for a day, you're far more likely to have that friendship/relationship fail, simply because you learn that you're not nearly as compatible as that initial common factor would suggest you were. Same concept applies to blocs. The earlier they form, the more frequently they fall. This artificial force binding the bloc together will eventually fatigue, and the scum have a buffet of paranoia to feast on.

Thus, as scum, ask to form a townbloc. As town, note the potential existence of it, but don't force it. The cards will fall where they will fall, and as a result, will inevitably organize the bloc with rankings.
My academy.
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Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!

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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:53 pm

In post 3, Espeonage wrote:Why does RVS suck so much, or why do I wish RVS didn't exist?
You wish the RVS didn't exist because nobody likes the RVS, but there's no way for games to begin with content in a day-start game. Heck, even in most night-start games (rare as they may be these days), there will still be an RVS. Pretty much the only games that don't feature an RVS are games where there was a mechanism in place that allowed for content discussion immediately.

The reason why we use the RVS is because it's impossible to start a game immediately with content unless, as mentioned, there is a mechanic in place that strongly favors there being content from the get-go. Thus, a method of generating content must be used. Other alternatives have been tried. The RQS, for instance, being a popular one, albeit one that ultimately favored scum more than town and didn't get the game rolling any sooner. There have been games where players have suggested skipping the RVS and generating content immediately--but in the process of discussing generating content, you take just as long if not longer to get actual content than using the RVS methodology.

We use the RVS because it's the method that has, by-and-large, proved the most effective at getting the results we want--content, soon, and useful content at that. Using it, a game can typically be out of the RVS before the end of page one (generally in smaller games) or two (in larger games). You might occasionally get an RVS that lasts longer thanks to some posting a ton of times in it, but even then, it typically ends in the same amount of time. (Generally within two real-life days, the Random Voting Stage has passed.) Not only is it easier to generate content soon in, but it's also something that can be fun. You can make jokes that don't otherwise fit into the game, you can have in-jokes that reference previously-played games, you can basically do your own thing for fun.

Thus, why it has such a strong hold over games. That doesn't mean we like it. I might have fun in the RVS, but I hate it. I find it awkward, and while I can get reads immediately from it, my accuracy is typically skewed as a result. I much prefer games that have that content rolling. There are ways to get more than the RVS. For instance, while the RQS is typically scum-oriented, you can ask questions in the RVS that (while more random than in other stages of the game) are beneficial to getting out. You can have RVS votes that are semi-serious as well, in that you're immediately discussing things and generating content, albeit in a more light-hearted way.

Still, though, RVS are a necessary evil of games by-and-large, because there's no method on the players side to avert the icebreaker that they give. On the modding side of things, though, you CAN influence this. As I said, simply by introducing a mechanic that changes the dynamics of the early-game, you've given a MASSIVE chance to the game lacking an RVS and having that immediate content, because the dynamics of the game have been changed. There may still be RVS votes, but they won't be the focus of the game.

Play around. Experiment. See what mechanics work and what don't. (For instance, one mechanic that might help is giving votes far more power than normal, thus, making players more cautious to simply throw them out.) Ultimately, your efforts will merely put a dent in the dominance of the RVS. But it's something that's different, something that's fun, which can set the bar high for other mods to aspire to accomplish, that breaking of the norm, of the RVS.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!

T-Bone
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:01 pm

Does Mastin see the irony in the 'Stop Bussing!' thread?

Also I agree with Kuribo. He should be a professor, as should I :P
#TeamLizzy (or I will ban you)

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mastin2
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:35 pm

In post 5, phokdapolees wrote:I have one simple question: How do I scumhunt? Because I'm never really able to pinpoint scum as town myself, and have always just followed up on cases other people started.
That's actually a great start! It's a little-known secret about my play, but in actuality, my reads are massively, MASSIVELY influenced by the works of others. No, seriously. I'm generally good at reading the people I engage with heavily, so when I have a townread on someone, when I trust a player, and that player gives a read on someone that I don't have a strong read on?

It makes a huge, HUGE difference to my read on that player. I am not a sheep; I have my own opinions on things. I'm going to do my own analysis and form my own conclusions. But I read the words of others and take them to heart. I actually listen when they voice their own opinions. I don't blindly follow them! I'm not going to instantly accept that their reads are better than mine. But their reads DO influence my own, and do so heavily. I analyze things knowing what they think, and building off of what their opinions are, with my own opinions mixed in, I weigh the scales to form an ultimate conclusion, one that is generally surprisingly effective at catching scum.

Now that said! I don't rely on others. I love their input, and I prefer to have it. But it's not a necessity for me to have that feedback. While these opinions of others (let's call them interactions, even though that's generally a different concept) have an influence over me, overall, I'm going to call it as I see it, and make my judgments largely off of the content of players. (My opinion OF the content might be painted partially by others' interpretations of it, but I'm still going to form my own interpretation of it.)

Of course, it's not perfect. It gets more accurate if there's a decent amount to work with. (And less accurate if there's too much to work with. :P The whole parabola theory, and all that. Too much is just as bad as too little.) I'm at my peak typically immediately after replacing in on D2 or D3 with my accuracy, because my initial reads get things that are corrupted if I'm in there longer or I never pick up on if I've let my biases form progressively. But in GENERAL, my reads get stronger the longer I live.

And I think it's largely because of the fact that I aim for the whole picture. When giving scumreads, I know that my scum list should not be double the size of the number of scum in a game. (4 scumreads in a micro is too many. Unless your moderator is Human Destroyer. :P 6 scumreads in a mini is too many. [5 is borderline too many as well, but isn't as bad.] 8 scumreads in a large is also too many. So if you have that many, you've gone horribly, HORRIBLY wrong in your approach, because there are going to be more town than scum, and your reads should be reflecting that!) Thus, the theories I form for scumteams, off of interactions and their general content, get more accurate with time as I have that additional info at my disposal. I keep things realistic, and that makes me a threat. I also see what isn't true, and what isn't true is just as important as what IS true. I can have a reasonable theory in mind that seems plausible enough, and a flip will cause me to realize that theory was wrong, and likely to investigate if the theory is completely and totally wrong, or needs a tweak.

To put it another way--the strongest part of my game is that I play the wifom game. The weakest part of my game is that I play the wifom game. :P NKA, VCA, I do them both, but they're educated guesswork at best. Everything in the game is, in fact. (See below.) I try to read things for how they are, but ultimately, it's just my own take on things when all is said and done. I take the perspective that, in a sense, the entire game is one giant load of wifom, and that it's the job of a town player to figure out what "level" is the actual one for the wifom. (Including figuring out alternatives. Most people think of wifom as having one glass poisoned and figuring out which it is. A good town player recognizes that it's possible BOTH are, and also thinks about neither. By which, I mean, can recognize that sometimes, both scenarios are true, and sometimes, neither are.)

Now, mind you. This next part I'm going to talk about is a slight tangent, but is related to this concept overall. I consider my gut and my logic to be one and the same, in that they're different aspects of the same concept (integrated into one another), in which I run through things to try and make sense of them. When I read a post, I might have a gut reaction to it--logic is what makes me search for what. When I compile a bunch of analysis, it's not my head which tells me what the analysis means. (That requires an objectivity that simply doesn't exist in mafia games; what is true in one game isn't true in another.) It's driven by my feeling, my "gut", of what's right.

To put this into general terms, I use logic, I use reasoning, I look at posts with the overall picture in mind, I keep an eye on interactions and mindset when looking for patterns (finding patterns is key!), and analyze all of that, but ultimately, after all of that is said and done, I'm going to go with what feels right. (For better or for worse, but generally, better.) Though there are a few basic rules I work by, they're for the most part more accurately defined as "guidelines" that define my general outlook on the game. (For instance, I mention above that I don't have double the scum in my scumreads. It's more applicable to finding townreads [which CAN be part of getting scumreads, via POE, but is not the focus of this post], but I generally DO try and have double the scum in my townreads. Four in a micro, six in a mini, eight in a smaller large, ten in a medium large, and 12 in a larger large.)

If you couldn't tell by this, there's no universal method for finding scum. I can give you general tips and guidelines. A key part of finding scum is recognizing scum thoughts. Their mindset, their motive, the intentions present in their post, are INCREDIBLY important to pick up on. A scummy player can be town whose words were scummy but intention was town. A townie player can be scum whose words looked good but were pushing a scum agenda. Mindset involves a lot of guesswork, and you'll get it wrong more than you get it right. But having meta knowledge helps, and also paying attention to those key interactions helps even more.

By reading how others interact with one another, and by seeing what they flip, and by guessing at what their mindset was when making those interactions, you can form increasingly-coherent reads that make progressively more and more sense as fitting. You'll never get a picture-perfect scumteam; there's no such thing. (If it looks too good to be true, it's not true. :P) But in general, you'll get a scumteam that looks like it's plausible enough to maybe actually be true, to actually exist.

That's the best tips I can give to everyone in general. If you want me to help you, specifically, just say so and I'll add you to the list.
Further reading: interactive tells talks about interactions you can pick up on.
Recognizing Reads talks about the process of giving out your reads, which ties into...
Mafia as a Social Game, where I talk about, well...talking to others. :P The article there mainly focuses on convincing players, but I also recommend it for reading on how to work with other players and incorporate their feedback into your own reads.

I realize those articles are a bit long, but that's because they go into these things more in-depth than I can in this session. They're for reading if the tips I present in here aren't enough.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!

T-Bone
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:46 pm

As much as I'm giving mastin a hard time about this, I think it's great that a few players have come into this thread with serious questions.
#TeamLizzy (or I will ban you)

"Playing in a Newbie game doesn't count" ~ PenguinPower, Feb 2019

mastin2
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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:03 pm

In post 8, thiscantgowrong wrote:First question: what are some general tips for appearing to be town (and is there a difference in looking town when you are actually town and when you aren't)?
The best way to appear to be town is to not try and appear to be town. :P

Similar to my thoughts on the townbloc, this is basically because the more forced you try and make it, the less successful it's going to be. Be natural. Be yourself. (Well, not entirely. The better elements of yourself. :P) Focus on scumhunting. When talking to others (and yes, you should be talking to others), make sure you're not defending yourself, but rather, working with them. You might say that if they think you're scum, they're wrong. You might clarify something that they didn't get. But don't defend yourself. It's almost never a good idea. Focus on the offense, focus on finding scum, and when talking with others, have that similar focus. (For instance, "alright, I get it, you think I'm scum. But if I wasn't, who is? Talk to me, here" or something along those lines is something I have said plenty of times.)

If you look like you're not concerned about how you're perceived, then you'll be more likely to be townread. And defending yourself is going to make people think you're scum. So don't. Don't do things with the intention of making yourself look town. Or to put in another way--don't try to be town. Actually BE town. If you let things flow naturally, if you let yourself focus on the objectives a town player has in mind (that is, to find scum and lynch them), then you're going to be perceived as being town.

Now this is all fine and dandy for town players, but scum players have to modify it a bit. For the most part, it's the same! A scum player needs to not focus on defending themselves. That survivalistic attitude not only makes them look worse, but also sabotages their team's chances as a whole if it includes hardcore bussing in it. Mafia are not serial killers; they win as a team. So keeping that in mind, the objective as scum isn't to lynch scum; it's to get town dead as fast as possible and scum dead as little as possible so that you endgame town as quickly as possible. (The more days town has to figure things out, the more likely it is they will do so.)

Thus, as scum, your posts are similar, but not identical. You should still be yourself, but you're not entirely posting naturally. Your perspective on things is biased because as scum, you know more. (For instance, your scumbuddies are going to look scummier to you as scum than they ever would to a town-you.) So pure-natural posting from scum is detrimental. Keep it as close to natural as you can while still having that objective in mind. Focus on scumhunting just as town, but make sure your scumhunting is advantageous to your faction. You should be talking to others just as much (if not MORE!) when scum, and working "with" them the same. The only difference being that instead of working "with" them, you're subtly (AND I DO MEAN SUBTLE!) sabotaging them, via miniscule misdirections. Focus on looking like you're trying to find scum, while having your actions direct the town players away from scum.

This is the fundamental basics of it. There's more to it, and I'll probably need an advanced class to explain it in detail. (By which, I mean, a more specific wiki article covering the subject. :P) One final tip on this, though, is that you're not trying to sway people to your side, as either alignment. (Basically, you don't want to give them the solution; they'll reject yours and substitute their own. :P) You're trying to make them think what you do (as scum--rather think what you want them to think), or have thoughts that synchronize with your own (as town). It's a subtle difference between the three, but basically...instead of trying to make them agree with you, you're trying to make them think they've found the solution for themselves. (When, as scum, it's something you implanted into their minds, when subtly guiding their train of thought.) If you're town, your goal is to have them find a solution that you can compare to your own, and as scum, for it to be exactly the same as your own.

I realize this is a difficult concept to grasp, but it's what separates the good from the great. Great town players can bring out the potential in another player. Great scum players can make another player their pawn. Both by running the same process, with just a slight modification in ending technique. It's definitely something you'll need to practice, and practice a lot.

When it comes to further reading on the subject if you need it, as I said, it's not something I have a definitive article on. (I need to write one.) The closest I have is recognizing reads and my argument on charisma, for further reading on the subject. I'd also recommend skimming Albert B. Rampage's Alignment Discovery, which talks about the differences between town and scum objectives.

Good luck!
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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:43 pm

What's the best way to get oneself lynched claiming cop with a guilty result, haha.....
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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:58 pm

Could I get some feedback on my play sometime?

I'm willing to hydra up.

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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:19 pm

In post 20, DrippingGoofball wrote:What's the best way to get oneself lynched claiming cop with a guilty result, haha.....

Claim it on an innocent child?
It'll all end in tears, it probably already has.

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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:24 pm

In post 20, DrippingGoofball wrote:What's the best way to get oneself lynched claiming cop with a guilty result, haha.....




just accidentally scumslip


like, drop the Amished tell since alot of people still swear by it


or post something you "intended to post in the scum QT"


of course since you are DGB no one will lynch you for either of those things, they'll just think "oh that DGB she so wacky"
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:37 pm

kuribo might actually give me some help on this question.

As a timid player, I'm not averse to trying to stand toe to toe with intelligent posters that are more articulate and methodical than I, however I have great difficulty in actually making headway (I always noticed my play as an SE in newbies as apposed to my play elsewhere on the site is vastly different) into getting those that I think are scum lynched or wagoned as after a few posts of back and forth I find myself getting beat down. What are the best ways to fix this trend to make myself feel louder, especially in larger games where there are more competing voices?
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