Mastin Academy

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
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Post Post #275 (ISO) » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:23 pm

Post by Davsto »

In post 272, Titus wrote:Mastina, I mean this in the politest way possible but I disagree vehemently with the scum love bussing points.

It honestly depends on the players. Sometimes you get scumteams that literally never bus, sometimes you get scumteams that bus loads. The real skill is fishing out votes that look like bussing, the knowledge of whether or not they bus is basically useless.
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Post Post #276 (ISO) » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:05 pm

Post by Plotinus »

I just feel like I have to work so much harder than everybody else does just to cobble together some mediocre reads on people. Other people can do it faster, more accurately, and with less work.
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Post Post #277 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:46 am

Post by pieguyn »

In post 273, T S O wrote:I had this problem for a while where I basically expected that 9/10 games as town, or scum, but in particular the former, I was going to single-handedly have to win the game by myself, and when this didn't happen I would feel disappointed and angry at my failure to do it.

+1. this is one of the worst emotions I've ever felt, to the point where I almost gave up and stopped playing because of it once. :/

the only way I can get around it is to remind myself that win rate is meh and play for enjoyment, but it's almost impossible for me to detach myself from games in that way while playing because obviously I'm trying to win.
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Post Post #278 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:30 am

Post by Plotinus »

I don't mind losing especially if the other side plays well. but
even when i win
and even when I've done my best, I feel like my best wasn't good enough. I can see the gaps between me and everyone else. It's like everyone else can just multiply in their heads and I have to count up on my fingers.
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Post Post #279 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:18 am

Post by SilverWolf »

In post 275, Davsto wrote:
In post 272, Titus wrote:Mastina, I mean this in the politest way possible but I disagree vehemently with the scum love bussing points.

It honestly depends on the players. Sometimes you get scumteams that literally never bus, sometimes you get scumteams that bus loads. The real skill is fishing out votes that look like bussing, the knowledge of whether or not they bus is basically useless.

I would look at the votes near the end of a wagon or votes that came on when the scum player looked like they were likely to be lynched regardless. Most scumteams won't bus for no reason. Distancing is a different story, that happens all the time which is why it's always good to look for associative tells post scum flip.
In post 277, pieguyn wrote:
In post 273, T S O wrote:I had this problem for a while where I basically expected that 9/10 games as town, or scum, but in particular the former, I was going to single-handedly have to win the game by myself, and when this didn't happen I would feel disappointed and angry at my failure to do it.

+1. this is one of the worst emotions I've ever felt, to the point where I almost gave up and stopped playing because of it once. :/
the only way I can get around it is to remind myself that win rate is meh and play for enjoyment, but it's almost impossible for me to detach myself from games in that way while playing because obviously I'm trying to win.

I have told myself over and over that it's just a game and I need to just have fun with it. But that is super hard for me to do. I am really competitive at this game and I always want to win. It's weird because I'm usually not like that.
In post 278, Plotinus wrote:I don't mind losing especially if the other side plays well. but
even when i win
and even when I've done my best, I feel like my best wasn't good enough. I can see the gaps between me and everyone else. It's like everyone else can just multiply in their heads and I have to count up on my fingers.

Holy crap Plot, you are a fantastic player. History Mafia is a perfect example of that. Your hydra had 4 votes. You came out, got me and others to townread you, killed us that night, then went on to never get another vote the rest of the game and win. You completely deserved that win too. I haven't played with you as town yet, but your scumgame sure doesn't need much help.
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Post Post #280 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:18 am

Post by Antihero »

In post 278, Plotinus wrote:It's like everyone else can just multiply in their heads and I have to count up on my fingers.

that's an illusion. no one's really running circles around you, plot.

just... take my word for it.
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Post Post #281 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:33 am

Post by Jake from State Farm »

In post 278, Plotinus wrote:I don't mind losing especially if the other side plays well. but
even when i win
and even when I've done my best, I feel like my best wasn't good enough. I can see the gaps between me and everyone else. It's like everyone else can just multiply in their heads and I have to count up on my fingers.

Welcome to my world.
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #282 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:55 am

Post by Voidedmafia »

In post 280, Antihero wrote:
In post 278, Plotinus wrote:It's like everyone else can just multiply in their heads and I have to count up on my fingers.

that's an illusion. no one's really running circles around you, plot.

just... take my word for it.

And mine. I have personal experience with you, dude. You were on-point in We Didn't Playtest This and I fully realize that it was my fault we lost that game. You did the work of, like, two entire towns the size of WDPT, and it was on me to realize how fucking town you were and not get caught up in my own self-doubt and suspicions.

Everyone has room to improve, and undoubtedly must strive to improve. But Plot, you don't have the same sort of need to improve that you think you do. You don't need to jump from 2 ft. to 4 ft. because you're already at 8 ft, if that makes sense.

(besides, at risk of circle-jerking--which isn't my intention here--I'd say that anaolgy applies more to me than to you, and in some ways is self-inflicted).
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Post Post #283 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:21 am

Post by Plotinus »

I appreciate the compliments, guys, and it means a lot to me, but I wasn't fishing. <3

I know that I'm good at
Spoiler: a few things
looking town (even when i'm not), my LYLO play (as both alignments), looking/being genuine, showing my work, wagondriving, keeping track of what my townself thinks of the gamestate, crumbhunting, remembering that one tiny thing that somebody said a month and over 100 pages ago and finding it quickly.


What I need to work on is: finding scum, finding people to work together with and actually working together with them, not overthinking my nightkills, and probably some more things too.

And given that finding scum is half of the job as town, that's a pretty big thing to need to work on. I can run in circles around the game thread scumhunting, but I don't find all that much scum in the process.

Maybe examples will help?

I've only been town in 2 of my last 10 completed games. The last one ended in October. It was o607. I did get my shit together in LYLO on day 6 and everyone forgave me for my day 1-5 play, but before that my reads were upside down, I was convinced on day 1 that the scumteam was 3 people who were town and then I strongarmed a lynch on one of them and then the other 2 were nightkilled and I was so lost. There's plenty I could have done differently on days 1-5 that I didn't do. I should've just hung back and sheeped my mason buddies and hydra partner or something. I was brought to 3p LYLO as an uncounterclaimed mason after claiming on day 2, that's how inept I was that game.

Before that, I was town in this horrid micro and I got into a stupid TvT with someone. We were in LYLO on day 2 and I could have voted correctly if I would have thought to use one of the 5p LYLO tells that I know about, but I didn't.

There was also this other sad little micro where I had town apathy on page 2 and it never got better and then we were in LYLO on page 6 and I had no reads. We won but it wasn't thanks to me.
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Post Post #284 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:18 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

most people have bad reads for the entire game

if you notice people with good reads in one or two games, 99% of the time you're seeing the one or two games they got lucky and missing the 15-20 they were average or awful

there are exceptions (in the sense that some people might be average to awful less often or might get lucky more often) but, in general, this holds true

working on finding scum is something the entire population of mafiascum needs to do
spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh
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Post Post #285 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:23 am

Post by Plotinus »

oh. I thought it was just me.
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Post Post #286 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:01 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

no, most people are just average-at-best at finding scum

you will probably not find many people whose average D1 scum lynch rate is much better than average over the course of many games

you will probably not find many people who can consistently identify more than half the scum team in the first two day phases of a game over the course of many games

you WILL, however, see people who can do this... sometimes. perhaps even in a string of games consecutive games. but I imagine, with the exception of playing with players who they're so familiar with that they can pick up consistent tells on, they're unlikely to be consistent with this over the course of many games

i don't have any hard statistics to base these statements on, they're just things i find to be true in my experience. even the players i think are very, very good, i wouldn't expect to have above average reads in more than about 50% of their games

(though it's hard to qualify exactly what "average", "good", etc mean, since they probably mean different things to different people, and there isn't really any way - currently - of objectively stating what good, average, bad are... for example, maybe people wouldn't agree that the criteria i stated in paragraphs 2 and 3 are good measures of someone's skill and even i haven't really thought in much detail about what makes someone good/bad/average)
spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh
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Post Post #287 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:06 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

Barring scumslips there are not many true scum tells. Town does scummy things all the time which makes the game harder. It's also easy to manipulate townies posts to make them look scummy.
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #288 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:49 pm

Post by VysePresident »

Plot, I think you actually have a very similar playstyle to me. (with the exception that I get lazy/overwhelmed by life a bit easier anymore.) I had few things I could have told you after WDPT, but I'm not sure how many are relevant anymore.

If you still want to hydra sometime, maybe we can both work on this stuff together a bit. Goodness knows I could use feedback.
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Post Post #289 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:23 pm

Post by Plotinus »

I'd like that, Vyse. I'm alive in 1 and modding 1 and signed up for 3 (clowntardis, werewolves of miller's hollow, and ICing a newbie game) so it'll need to wait a little bit because I don't play well when i'm overextended, but I remembered that you did ask me back in June so I put you near the start of my waiting list.

I'm also not sure how much WDPT-based advice would help at this stage; it was 6 months ago that it finished after all. I spent the first month newbslipping and being the usual lost newbie in their first large and that's a one time experience thankfully. I replaced into it right after my first newbie game was completed and I was brand new to mafia, not just new to the site, so it took me a month to figure out how to play. I don't think there's anything I could have done differently in that 6 week perpetual MYLO except maybe to tell BC to hammer when they offered to instead of waiting for the replacement and allowing the replacement time to defend themselves but I was trying not to look opportunistic and I thought it was fair to let the replacement have a chance.

I didn't notice BBmolla buddying me and I shouldn't have got paranoid of my toptownread (BC), should have trusted my numbers thing to be right about them, but I don't think I could have done better at the time with the resources I had available to me. Maybe I'd notice the buddying now, maybe I wouldn't. I'd be better at reading mastina this time around but that's because I've played with her before and I hadn't yet played with her then.
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Post Post #290 (ISO) » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:22 am

Post by wgeurts »

Out of interest for anyone whose seen my game how could I improve?
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i agree we should have a rule against wgeurts
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let's have 2 rules against wgeurts
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Post Post #291 (ISO) » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:13 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

Still waiting on mastin to critique me
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Post Post #292 (ISO) » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:37 am

Post by Davsto »

In post 290, wgeurts wrote:Out of interest for anyone whose seen my game how could I improve?

Lie less.
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Post Post #293 (ISO) » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:38 am

Post by PhantomCobalt »

Mastin can I possibly hydra with you?
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Post Post #294 (ISO) » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:13 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

I know how I can improve, what I don't know is how to actually do it. As mastin said I'm still an arrogant ass who doesn't listen to anyone else and tunnels like a son of a bitch but idk how to stop doing it.
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #295 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:30 pm

Post by VysePresident »

...I kinda realized I promised you a PM and stuff a while back, and failed to deliver due to IRL stuff. :/

Really though, if you've picked up on that much, all I can say is that you'd do well to figure out how a more humble version of you might act, then aim for that. (Patience will be key, since players won't immediately listen to you, fair warning.)

Really, it's more of a matter of becoming the act, so to speak, except that it's less a matter of changing who you are, and more a matter of how you present that.

Just my 02, for what it's worth.
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Post Post #296 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:43 pm

Post by VysePresident »

@Plot - Yeah, I kinda remembered, but wasn't sure if you were still interested, now that you're famous and I'm not. :P (I kid, I kid.)

I think your analysis on WDPT is pretty on point, with the counterpoint that I was kinda meh on Bulbasaur myself. Though to be fair, I can't honestly compare them to Molla given that I knew his alignment at the time. That rather screws with my ability to gauge the situation.

I likewise don't do well when I overextend myself, and am alive in two games at present, which is exactly my maximum. I wouldn't mind catching you after I've had a chance to work through them.
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Post Post #297 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:14 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

mastin i rlly want ur opinion of my play
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Post Post #298 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:56 am

Post by T S O »

In post 227, T S O wrote:I'm taking over Mastin Academy. Direct all questions to me. I may also start posting from my mastin2 account, so don't be alarmed if I start making jokes on it.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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Post Post #299 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:57 am

Post by T S O »

In post 297, xRECKONERx wrote:mastin i rlly want ur opinion of my play


You need to listen to others more, and you also need to push your own reads more. You need to be aware that sometimes you're wrong, and you need to doubt yourself less.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso"
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