Private Topics Discussion (Now with Mish Mash)

[zoraster]

we don't often see people truly just trolling (abc and his alts notwithstanding), but we do occasionally get people who continue to post in games after they're dead. Players who have been force replaced/modkilled are the biggest source of this, often to argue with the mod. As much as I get a high from using the small modicum of power granted to me, it would be nice for a mod to be able to prevent that before I have to turn to the banhammer. Still, I don't think this is exactly high priority.

As for the hydra thing, that's true, but hopefully eventually we'll get some alt-masking set up, but that's a Kison project.

[GuyInFreezer]

I don't know why you'd do it that way. using more dice actually just makes it more likely people will share the same roll. I'd rather just do 1d100 for each player.

Add a random seed attached to it?

Code: Select all

[dice]2d9 234892374[/dice]
[dice]2d9 234892374[/dice]
[dice]2d9 256492374[/dice]

Original Roll String: 2d9 (STATIC)

2 9-Sided Dice: (2, 5) = 7

Original Roll String: 2d9 (STATIC)

2 9-Sided Dice: (2, 5) = 7

Original Roll String: 2d9 (STATIC)

2 9-Sided Dice: (3, 6) = 9

[GuyInFreezer]

oh nvm adding seeds shows as static

[Sakura Hana]

Liking this, and will definitively be using the private topics for when i mod another game, great work guys!

[Cheery Dog]

I think the best thing coming out of these is that I no longer need to hate a site for not allowing me to globally change my timezone, as I now won't need to use it (except greater modless on skype)

[tn5421]

Seems like numbering your roles and then rolling something crazy like 5d100 for each player would be the easiest way to sort players. Highest score gets lowest number. If there is a tie roll 1d100 for tied members and follow higher roll number = lower role number.

[Jake from State Farm]

so we can't use QTs anymore?

[zoraster]

are you trolling? read the OP.

[Jake from State Farm]

I missed that part, chill out

[tn5421]

I've figured out how I will eventually run games, based on this thread. Each role and player will be assigned a number.

Example setup with 5p vengeful:

1. Townie
2. Godfather
3. Townie
4. Mafia Goon
5. Townie

Also assign players a number, based on signup number:

6. player1
7. player2
8. player3
9. player4
10. player5

Then roll dice (7d20 being my personal preference)
Role Rolls:

1.

Original Roll String: 7d20

7 20-Sided Dice: (7, 19, 5, 8, 17, 8, 1) = 65

2.

Original Roll String: 7d20

7 20-Sided Dice: (11, 12, 3, 18, 1, 20, 1) = 66

3.

Original Roll String: 7d20

7 20-Sided Dice: (1, 19, 6, 3, 11, 13, 2) = 55

4.

Original Roll String: 7d20

7 20-Sided Dice: (4, 19, 15, 16, 20, 4, 11) = 89

5.

Original Roll String: 7d20

7 20-Sided Dice: (9, 9, 12, 2, 19, 20, 9) = 80

Sort highest number to lowest number.
Then roll your players:

6.

Original Roll String: 7d20

7 20-Sided Dice: (12, 13, 20, 14, 3, 2, 15) = 79

7.

Original Roll String: 7d20

7 20-Sided Dice: (19, 15, 15, 19, 13, 12, 8) = 101

8.

Original Roll String: 7d20

7 20-Sided Dice: (12, 15, 8, 3, 4, 7, 20) = 69

9.

Original Roll String: 7d20

7 20-Sided Dice: (6, 5, 3, 11, 11, 4, 9) = 49

10.

Original Roll String: 7d20

7 20-Sided Dice: (6, 3, 18, 13, 5, 7, 2) = 54

Do the same with these. The highest number roll player side will get the role the rolled the highest on the step before.

[tn5421]

For my example above, the order of roles would be:

3, 4, 1, 2. 5.

The order of players would be:
7, 6, 8, 10, 9.

Therefore:

Townies: player2, player3, player4

Mafia: player1, player5

If there is anything statistically wrong with this setup, or you don't feel that it generates enough randomness, I am willing to take suggestions.

Edit: I apologize for the double post but i needed unmodified rolls to make my example

[Axxle]

There is no reason you need to randomize both the roles and the players. Unless you want to randomize where they appear in the op or something.

[tn5421]

I feel that randomizing the order of the role, randomizing the order of the players, and putting together results in better randomization than simply randomizing one or the other. Why do you feel that it isn't worth the effort?

[N]

How can something be more random? It's either random or it's not.

[Burning_Earth]

I've figured out how I will eventually run games, based on this thread. Each role and player will be assigned a number.

Example setup with 5p vengeful:

1. Townie
2. Godfather
3. Townie
4. Mafia Goon
5. Townie

Also assign players a number, based on signup number:

6. player1
7. player2
8. player3
9. player4
10. player5

Then roll dice (7d20 being my personal preference)
Role Rolls:

1.

Original Roll String: 7d20 (STATIC)

7 20-Sided Dice: (7, 19, 7, 18, 2, 14, 5) = 72

2.

Original Roll String: 7d20 (STATIC)

7 20-Sided Dice: (19, 14, 6, 6, 1, 19, 4) = 69

3.

Original Roll String: 7d20 (STATIC)

7 20-Sided Dice: (12, 18, 1, 7, 11, 17, 17) = 83

4.

Original Roll String: 7d20 (STATIC)

7 20-Sided Dice: (18, 1, 7, 13, 18, 15, 9) = 81

5.

Original Roll String: 7d20 (STATIC)

7 20-Sided Dice: (8, 16, 4, 12, 6, 14, 7) = 67

Sort highest number to lowest number.
Then roll your players:

6.

Original Roll String: 7d20 (STATIC)

7 20-Sided Dice: (14, 16, 11, 19, 1, 10, 9) = 80

7.

Original Roll String: 7d20 (STATIC)

7 20-Sided Dice: (14, 13, 4, 16, 6, 15, 18) = 86

8.

Original Roll String: 7d20 (STATIC)

7 20-Sided Dice: (20, 2, 10, 3, 9, 9, 8) = 61

9.

Original Roll String: 7d20 (STATIC)

7 20-Sided Dice: (18, 5, 4, 1, 5, 18, 7) = 58

10.

Original Roll String: 7d20 (STATIC)

7 20-Sided Dice: (11, 4, 1, 17, 5, 14, 7) = 59

Do the same with these. The highest number roll player side will get the role the rolled the highest on the step before.

It decreases double-ups to roll the highest possible amount of dice: 100d100

Original Roll String: 100d100

100 100-Sided Dice: (93, 86, 92, 23, 15, 90, 60, 97, 88, 1, 44, 64, 58, 15, 31, 12, 76, 72, 44, 37, 58, 90, 93, 55, 39, 53, 99, 59, 91, 29, 51, 38, 46, 95, 95, 19, 80, 30, 52, 98, 47, 77, 41, 5, 61, 6, 5, 85, 88, 46, 12, 100, 81, 49, 47, 11, 22, 72, 95, 79, 21, 82, 18, 65, 34, 27, 93, 81, 35, 63, 67, 58, 88, 48, 83, 43, 49, 52, 40, 74, 39, 25, 72, 87, 28, 93, 19, 71, 47, 53, 34, 31, 90, 48, 26, 72, 2, 23, 11, 77) = 5466

[tn5421]

How can something be more random? It's either random or it's not.

You randomize both sides of the table instead of just one and more possibilities open up. This is more noticeable in games that have more than 5 participants, I only used that size to keep my post size from becoming needlessly large. There are only 20 or so possibilities in my setup if you do not randomize one side.

[Mr. Flay]

How can something be more random? It's either random or it's not.

This. You're confusing the appearance of randomness with actual randomness.

[Cheery Dog]

How can something be more random? It's either random or it's not.

You randomize both sides of the table instead of just one and more possibilities open up. This is more noticeable in games that have more than 5 participants, I only used that size to keep my post size from becoming needlessly large. There are only 20 or so possibilities in my setup if you do not randomize one side.

There's the same possiblities, just reordered.

You decide to eat out somewhere
Will you order a main meal, drink and dessert
drink, main meal and dessert
or dessert, main meal and drink?

[Zachrulez]

I'm not really seeing the benefit of determining alignment by dice. It looks needlessly confusing to me with a chance of doubling up rolls anyway.

Why does it feel like we're trying to fix what isn't broken with the random generator shell page? It's designed specifically for randomizing mafia roles. The dice tags aren't.

Oh right... verification.

If we're to the point of actively distrusting mod rolls, I'm not even sure why we're here anymore honestly.

Edit: Actually an ideal solution would be to build in the random generator shell code into the site so you could run THAT as part of a mod topic for verification. No idea how viable that would be but I'm guessing it wouldn't be easy.

[zoraster]

If we don't trust the mod, this fixes that. or at least in regards to this. Just because I don't trust a mod to not manipulate results doesn't mean I don't trust the mod to not cheat in more obvious ways (e.g. telling his friends who's scum). Anyway, it's a way for a mod to gain and keep trust from the beginning.

I mean, use this method or don't, but no need to get upset at people who are using it.

As for the others, it doesn't really matter how you do it so long as the basic idea is there: post a list of roles, generate values for players (or vice versa). I think some ways are somewhat superior in that they reduce the need to roll a second time, but it's a minor point.

[Jake from State Farm]

why would a mod tell his friends who scum is? lol

[Zachrulez]

If we don't trust the mod, this fixes that. or at least in regards to this. Just because I don't trust a mod to not manipulate results doesn't mean I don't trust the mod to not cheat in more obvious ways (e.g. telling his friends who's scum). Anyway, it's a way for a mod to gain and keep trust from the beginning.

I mean, use this method or don't, but no need to get upset at people who are using it.

It just annoys me because there's a program that exists specifically for the purpose of randomizing roles. If it was built into the site somehow, I would have no problem using it. But rolling dice for the benefit of verification vs the random generator shell... I'm going to pick the page that's specifically designed for it vs the faults that the dice tags have.

I also don't think it was ever clarified that the dice couldn't be manipulated anyway.

[Jake from State Farm]

Agree with zach

[zoraster]

why would a mod tell his friends who scum is? lol

Why? Because he's colluding with his friends. Do I think mods do this? Almost never. But that's my point.

If we don't trust the mod, this fixes that. or at least in regards to this. Just because I don't trust a mod to not manipulate results doesn't mean I don't trust the mod to not cheat in more obvious ways (e.g. telling his friends who's scum). Anyway, it's a way for a mod to gain and keep trust from the beginning.

I mean, use this method or don't, but no need to get upset at people who are using it.

It just annoys me because there's a program that exists specifically for the purpose of randomizing roles. If it was built into the site somehow, I would have no problem using it. But rolling dice for the benefit of verification vs the random generator shell... I'm going to pick the page that's specifically designed for it vs the faults that the dice tags have.

I also don't think it was ever clarified that the dice couldn't be manipulated anyway.

It fulfills the purpose of randomly assigning, but it does not fulfill the specific purpose of letting your players know you aren't manipulating.

The biggest way you can manipulate it is by deleting the post. But you run the risk of a reviewer seeing you do this, plus that kind of thing is on the system. Flay indicated there may be a way to do so more directly, but I haven't figured out how to do that, so unless someone is purposefully picking a system that makes life harder to manipulate and then manipulates, it seems unlikely.

The truth is that these attempts are designed to make manipulation much harder, not impossible. That was the point of RGAM too, which could be manipulated but why would you choose to do that and then have to do all the work to manipulate it? The dice roll/private thread is just another way -- a better way incidentally -- of doing that.

[Zachrulez]

why would a mod tell his friends who scum is? lol

Why? Because he's colluding with his friends. Do I think mods do this? Almost never. But that's my point.

Are you talking about him telling friends that are actively playing the game, or friends that aren't playing that they might be calling on to be somewhat of a backup mod or a friend that just wants to follow along the game knowing all the rolls without actually playing in it?

If we don't trust the mod, this fixes that. or at least in regards to this. Just because I don't trust a mod to not manipulate results doesn't mean I don't trust the mod to not cheat in more obvious ways (e.g. telling his friends who's scum). Anyway, it's a way for a mod to gain and keep trust from the beginning.

I mean, use this method or don't, but no need to get upset at people who are using it.

It just annoys me because there's a program that exists specifically for the purpose of randomizing roles. If it was built into the site somehow, I would have no problem using it. But rolling dice for the benefit of verification vs the random generator shell... I'm going to pick the page that's specifically designed for it vs the faults that the dice tags have.

I also don't think it was ever clarified that the dice couldn't be manipulated anyway.

It fulfills the purpose of randomly assigning, but it does not fulfill the specific purpose of letting your players know you aren't manipulating.

The biggest way you can manipulate it is by deleting the post. But you run the risk of a reviewer seeing you do this, plus that kind of thing is on the system. Flay indicated there may be a way to do so more directly, but I haven't figured out how to do that, so unless someone is purposefully picking a system that makes life harder to manipulate and then manipulates, it seems unlikely.

The truth is that these attempts are designed to make manipulation much harder, not impossible. That was the point of RGAM too, which could be manipulated but why would you choose to do that and then have to do all the work to manipulate it? The dice roll/private thread is just another way -- a better way incidentally -- of doing that.

Technically it's legal for a mod to actually just assign roles without bothering with randomization. It's something most of us look down on and it's not particularly good modding, but we do technically permit roles to be assigned that way. (It's actually an acceptable way of assigning roles if the players are unaware.)

The main reason I chose NOT to manipulate is not really because I'm incredibly concerned with whether players think I'm honestly assigning roles randomly, it's because of the drawbacks of manipulating. I don't want my own preferences for role assignments becoming a point of discussion in the game. So the motivation to not manipulate for me outweighs the motivation to do so.

I'm actually interested in the viability of building something like the random generator shell into the site because I'm actually somewhat surprised that something like that doesn't already exist as an internal moderator tool.