Rebels in the Palace

[Wake1]

I'm going to make a modified Nightless/RitP mix. Closed Setup. The Scum faction'll still lose if its Leader dies, but they'll know each other.

Before you knock it wait a minute. I'm very creative, and am looking into a ton of interesting details to etch into the game.

[PokerFace]

Code: Select all

RITP Reverse Check Balance Math (5v2+1) 
  |3-2| =   1  = (Long Game Absolute LyLo Value is 2v0+1 = 3 mislynches and 2 goodlynches)
(1+4)/2 =  1.5 = (Short Game Avg Value is 1 king lynch or 2 mislynches. Divide by 2 possibilities)
  1-1.5 = -0.5 = (Long - Short) = You want as close to 0 as possible.  Positive is town sided, negative is scum sided

RITP Reverse Check Balance Math (6v2+1) 
  |4-2| = 2 = (Long Game Absolute LyLo Value is 2v0+1 = 4 mislynches and 2 goodlynches)
(1+3)/2 = 2 = (Short Game Avg Value is 1 king lynch or 3 mislynches. Divide by 2 possibilities)
    2-2 = 0 = (Long - Short) = You want as close to 0 as possible.   Positive is town sided, negative is scum sided

When I run this in micro 6v2+1 is what I plan to do

[TierShift]

I don't get any part of that formula. Has that been explained somewhere?

[PokerFace]

Its based on the idea of having an equal chance of winning on both sides. You figure out the chance of a team winning both the long way and short way. The short is divided by 2 since both mafia and town have different short ways of winning the game. And as far as the long game goes everything is identical until final lylo where it should be anyone's game so you don't need to divide by 2 there you just need to calculate the prop ammount of how much a guard lynch should be worth.

The idea of 1 guard lynch = 2 mislynches sounds unfair to me in 8v3+1. It does not match entirly up with how proportional a king lynch ends everything. But adjusting the value of the guard lynch you adjust the number of mislynches town is allowed and get closer to something fair

Granted it is something I came up with a few days ago for RITP use only. It should NOT be used for normal mafia becuase after all you don't gain mislynches in normal mafia and normal mafia already has mafia gets 3 townies lynches in 12 then they win and if town gets 3 mafia lynched that should be a win the other way

If you believe I am making an error or think their is a better formula for RITP fairness feel free to let me know. I'm not sure if there is a way to apply a simular formula to EITP

[PokerFace]

Looking at the original setup design its clear 1 king lynch was considered to be worth lynching 4 people (1 king and his 3 guards die) the reverse of 4 townies dying meant scum won

But if 1 guard grants town 2 mislynches that doesn't really match up. 3*2=6.

If a king gets all his guards lynched early he needs 7 mislynches to win in 1v0+1

Him needing 3 to make up for his lost guards and 3 more is alot more reasonable

1 guard = 2 townies. King can't end game 2 people. So your effectively saying the king is lesser than a guard

I see the game as rebels vs the king and guards are just pawns. If the 1 king is worth 4 lynches and 3 guards is worth 3 additional lynches well 4+3=7. so you need 7 rebels to rise against them

[PokerFace]

hmm acording to that logic 5v2+1 should be balanced

1 king = 3, 2 guards = 2, 3+2 =5. need 5 to rise against

but the earlier math invalidates that.

Shrug guess its best just to go by trial an error. try 6v2+1 a few times and if scum and town seem to win half the time then keep it otherwise modify it later

[TierShift]

I don't think your formulas hold much ground tbh
But I don't completely understand them.

Is the idea behind them:
The average time to victory should be equal for both teams
And
The average time is calculated by (long victory+short victory)/2
?

[PokerFace]

That is the idea I want to be behind them, but looking at my math in hindsight, I'm not sure it leads to that solution

[TierShift]

For micros and minis fastest town victory is always faster than fastest scum victory. (eg. 2 scumylnches vs 3 townlynches)

But this is counteracted by a town lynch being approx 3x more likely at the start of the game. And that isn't reflected in your formula.

[Magua]

Your formulas are not good because, from my reading, they weight based on the number of events (correct lynch vs mislynch) needed without factoring in the chance of each of those events happening (a mislynch is always more likely than a correct lynch; otherwise town doesn't have majority)

[PokerFace]

Recalerbrating...

Long game + 1 good lynch = town win
Long game + 1 mislynch = scum win
Short for town = get rid of king
Short for scum = get rid of X townies
1 King = X townies
2*Guards >= X >= Guards
3*Guards >= Town Total >= 2*Guards + 1

I guess both 7v3+1 and 8v3+1 work though one may be townsided and the other scumsided in practice.

I think ideally you would want:
Town Total = 2X
X = 1.5 guards
but 1/2 a player would be impossible.

If I want to follow

For micros and minis fastest town victory is always faster than fastest scum victory. (eg. 2 scumylnches vs 3 townlynches)

But this is counteracted by a town lynch being approx 3x more likely at the start of the game. And that isn't reflected in your formula.

Then 6v2+1 is likely the best starting point for a micro version

[PokerFace]

wait a sec
if guards = 2
then
X = 1.5 guards => 3
Town Total = 2X => 6
Then 6v2+1 actually works perfectly

[PokerFace]

I plan to start signups for that^ in the near future, pm me if interested

[PokerFace]

More and more I think about it. I believe a large with a nightkill needs to be 14v3+1

Short game = 1 king lynch or 5 mislynches 5 good kills
Long game = 6 mislynches 6 good kills, 3 miskills 3 goodlynches

In 7v3+1 = Short game, Town gets 3 myslynches. Then they loose
In 7v3+1 = Long game, Town 'can' get up to 5 myslynches. Then 1 more they loose

In 8v3+1 = Short game, Town gets 4 myslynches. Then they loose
In 8v3+1 = Long game, Town 'can' get up to 6 myslynches. Then 1 more they loose

In 14v3+1 with a night kill, Town gets 5 myslynches.
If scum myskills once, town gets 1 more lynch. (6 total)
If scum myskills three times, town gets 2 more lynch. (7 total)

Those stats feel like the right mid point. EITP wiki updated

[PokerFace]

I have added the (6v2+1) to the micro queue. Will be awhile before its at front of line. I will accept Pre-/ins currently only 2 pre-/in spots remain

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6286458

[Wake1]

I'm finding RitP to be far too Town-sided.

Making the King/Guards know each other and have Daytalk would be far more engaging.

[PokerFace]

I'm finding RitP to be far too Town-sided.

Making the King/Guards know each other and have Daytalk would be far more engaging.

That would make it 8v4 nightless with town getting the benefit of kill king = win

8v4 night less is already mostly won by town giving them an extra bonus of lynch the king for the win is worse

This is why I think 7v3+1 is better. You nerf both the town and scum by subtracting town, subtracting night talk, and adding king mechanics

How many games did you run and what were the outcomes that lead you to believe 8v3+1 was bad?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Rebels on a plane ftw.

This.

[ika]

I'm finding RitP to be far too Town-sided.

Making the King/Guards know each other and have Daytalk would be far more engaging.

this is essensaly moutous mafia with daytalk but with a small framwork of RiTP

[Wake1]

Similar, yes.

Nightless, Semi-Open, Kingly, Multiball, Daytalk, Informed.

Add in multiple Neighborhoods w/Daytalk and masterfully engrave the game with clever abilities of various kinds.

[PokerFace]

I might need a backup for 9P RITP in the event of something crazy happening to me like woodpeckers poking my eyes out or some other unnatural disaster

volunteers? Please PM me

[PokerFace]

and I got 3 volunteers in a very short amount of time

I really like our mafia community and its helpful people

2 pre-ins still available for who wants it

[PokerFace]

I meant to post here when it went into full signups and not just pre-/ins but I forgot. Game is full now and just started. It needs replacements at the moment and may need some later. If you are interested PM me

Game itself is here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59690

If you want to spectate and not play/replace, I can give access to the private spectate thread to those that want that

[PokerFace]

My game has ended
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59690
Was very fun. I think scum's chance of winning is better in 9P setup than in 12P setup because less guards can give secrets and even less rebels can find them. So generally less things can go wrong for the scum. In a setup that would normally favor town

Did some simulations and research on random lynching in RITP
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6359260
it does not look like a good town (Rebel) strategy

[Wake1]

I'm thinking of a mutation for RitP.

13 player RitP:

1) Guards/King know each other.
2) Gs/K know each other, and have Daytalk.
3) Red Guard/King, & Blue Guard/King.
4) Red Guard/King, & Blue Guard/King, and each have Daytalk.