Rolecop Results

[Phoenicks]

Posed by a friend:

"Can a naive cop be identified by a mafia rolecop?"

I said this was a modifier, and probably wouldn't be picked up by a rolecop. If a Naive Cop doesn't know he's Naive, why would a Rolecop? Then again, would a Rolecop know the difference between a Macho Cop and a Regular Cop? So I looked up the definition of Rolecop on the wiki and got a contradicting answer:

A Role Cop investigates roles to determine

their role title as it would appear in their flip

(e.g. Cop, Doctor, Role Cop, Vanilla). It does not discern alignment;

both Vanilla Townies and Mafia Goons investigate as "Vanilla".

The first rule is excepted by the second; if Rolecop can't tell Vanilla Town from Vanilla Scum, why would it know Naive Cop from Sane Cop?

In some role madness games

or in games with multiple scum groups, the condition that Role Cop does not learn its target's alignment is not applied.

Role Cops will learn the full role name of their targets.

In particularly extreme cases this has been extended to the Role Cop receiving the entire Role PM of its target (with names and chat topic links deleted, of course).

Put another way: Rolecop learning details is not Normal. This definition does not suggest that Rolecop learns a role titles "as it [sic] would appear in their flip".

What do you guys think?

[chamber]

I would resolve it as the rolecop learning as much as the player knows about their own role, but nothing about their alignment. The player doesn't know they are naive so neither would the role cop.

[reinoe]

How would a vanilla traitor show up to a rolecop? "Traitor"? What about an investigation immune Godfather?

[chamber]

The first is a good question that I have no standard answer to. If you are going to mod a game with a vanilla traitor and a rolecop, at least know how you intend to resolve it before game start.

'investigation immune godfather' is a very poor definition. Most precise definitions of that role say that they return the result a vanilla townie would, so I would say vanilla.

[LlamaFluff]

I would resolve it as the rolecop learning as much as the player knows about their own role, but nothing about their alignment. The player doesn't know they are naive so neither would the role cop.

This. To me a rolecop should investigate a player exactly what their role is, minus alignment.

Vanilla Town is Vanilla
Cop is Cop (regardless of what hidden mechanics exist)
Naïve Cop is Naïve Cop (assuming the role PM says "Naïve Cop")
Mafia Traitor is Traitor (since Traitor is modifying the alignment "mafia")
Mafia Godfather could be an exception if the role specifically says that it would investigate as Vanilla Town, then it would be Vanilla

[reinoe]

I would resolve it as the rolecop learning as much as the player knows about their own role, but nothing about their alignment. The player doesn't know they are naive so neither would the role cop.

This. To me a rolecop should investigate a player exactly what their role is, minus alignment.

Vanilla Town is Vanilla
Cop is Cop (regardless of what hidden mechanics exist)
Naïve Cop is Naïve Cop (assuming the role PM says "Naïve Cop")
Mafia Traitor is Traitor (since Traitor is modifying the alignment "mafia")
Mafia Godfather could be an exception if the role specifically says that it would investigate as Vanilla Town, then it would be Vanilla

Oh snap!!!

[PokerFace]

I would resolve it as the rolecop learning as much as the player knows about their own role, but nothing about their alignment. The player doesn't know they are naive so neither would the role cop.

[Cheery Dog]

Your second option is a variation as the wiki page says. The default rolecop is as per the Cop page.

I guess the confusion can lie if you reveal a cop sanity on death though.

I think they would learn that someone is a Macho cop, but then you can probably just exclude all modifiers and just look at the power a player has.

[Fenchurch]

Naïve Cop is Naïve Cop (assuming the role PM says "Naïve Cop")

Has there ever actually been a Naïve Cop where the role PM said Naïve Cop?

[Faraday]

I've told a paranoid day cop they were paranoid before, so maybe!

[Untrod Tripod]

It really depends on the game

you could design a setup around hidden modifiers and a cop that can see them

hmmmmmmm

[Untrod Tripod]

in general though, a rolecop should get just as much or slightly less information than the player they investigate.

I've done

a. send the cop the Role Name of the player (as in, Faraday is a Shift Manipulator) with no further information given
b. send the cop the role pm of the player with alignment information removed
c. send the cop a list of abilities the player has (although that could more rightly be called an ability cop?)

Each of those options has their merits. A neuters the rolecop a bit in a mechanic/role heavy setup especially where you've invented roles. B is great for role madness games (I used it in Comparative Religion, I think) where players have a shitton of abilities. That was specifically used because players could steal abilities from and grant abilities to other players so I wanted to reflect that in the role cop. C is inelegant but oldskool.

[Shadowmod]

Rolecop gets exactly those results that the mod running the respective game considers making the most sense in the context of the setup in question...

As a guideline I'd say, if a player is an insane (or naïve/paranoid) cop they only get a standard cop PM, maybe with a hint in the flavour that sanity is not guaranteed (depending on the mod and kind and bastardness of the game, I guess), hence a role cop will just learn that said player is a cop.
Modifiers like macho or weak, on the other hand, are usually not hidden and a role cop should learn about them, too, unless specified otherwise.
This is assuming that the game is complying to normalcy guidelines, of course, or at least sticking to simple, standard roles.

If the game uses roles that are not standardized or commonly known, a role cop may in fact be just a flavour cop, if all they get is a role name, or more like an ability cop, if they learn about their targets' actual capabilities...

[Vi]

Naïve Cop is Naïve Cop (assuming the role PM says "Naïve Cop")

Has there ever actually been a Naïve Cop where the role PM said Naïve Cop?

I've always wanted to give someone a Role PM telling them they're a Naïve Cop

(mod note: actually a Sane Cop)

.

[Phoenicks]

I would resolve it as the rolecop learning as much as the player knows about their own role, but nothing about their alignment. The player doesn't know they are naive so neither would the role cop.

This. To me a rolecop should investigate a player exactly what their role is, minus alignment.

Vanilla Town is Vanilla
Cop is Cop (regardless of what hidden mechanics exist)
Naïve Cop is Naïve Cop (assuming the role PM says "Naïve Cop")
Mafia Traitor is Traitor (since Traitor is modifying the alignment "mafia")
Mafia Godfather could be an exception if the role specifically says that it would investigate as Vanilla Town, then it would be Vanilla

These answers make sense to me intuitively, but they lead to some odd combinations. For instance, if the Traitor is the last scum standing, he normally ascends and becomes a Mafia Goon. This means that he would go from "Traitor" to "Vanilla". But a normal Cop inspecting the same player would normally get "Town" on the Traitor and "Mafia" on the ascended Good traitor. (What a weird role.)

Godfather as an exception makes sense, but then to be consistent Millers would investigate as "Vanilla". Telling a rolecop that the Godfather is Vanilla sounds fine (Godfather is supposed to pass inspections), but telling him that a Miller is vanilla seems bastard. I would prefer Rolecop getting Vanilla on one and Miller on the other, but that sounds pretty inconsistent to me.

For what it's worth, I just remembered an offsite game I modded with cop sanities and rolecops. I did not tell rolecops which sanity of cop they inspected, because the cops themselves did not know.

Your second option is a variation as the wiki page says. The default rolecop is as per the Cop page.

Right. So if Rolecop getting all details is explicitly not Normal, what is Normal?

As a guideline I'd say,

if a player is an insane (or naïve/paranoid) cop they only get a standard cop PM, maybe with a hint in the flavour that sanity is not guaranteed

(depending on the mod and kind and bastardness of the game, I guess), hence a role cop will just learn that said player is a cop.
Modifiers like macho or weak, on the other hand, are usually not hidden and a role cop should learn about them, too, unless specified otherwise.
This is assuming that the game is complying to normalcy guidelines, of course, or at least sticking to simple, standard roles.

If the game uses roles that are not standardized or commonly known, a role cop may in fact be just a flavour cop, if all they get is a role name, or more like an ability cop, if they learn about their targets' actual capabilities...

I think this is the winning answer. If the cop doesn't know what sanity they are, but knows there are sanities, then the rolecop learns that they checked a cop but not of what sanity.

(Though this leads to another odd exception: the Rolecop could claim "I know that there are cop sanities," which would be proof enough for any cop informed there were sanities. This is slightly easier than proving the Rolecop by outing someone's role.)

[Faraday]

For instance, if the Traitor is the last scum standing, he normally ascends and becomes a Mafia Goon. This means that he would go from "Traitor" to "Vanilla". But a normal Cop inspecting the same player would normally get "Town" on the Traitor and "Mafia" on the ascended Good traitor. (What a weird role.)

Eh, this is hardly normal/the most common for traitor. (It's maybe not uncommon either, but it's not more common than "scum faction loses", traitors recruited in that way are kinda weird though, agreed.

[Cheery Dog]

Right. So if Rolecop getting all details is explicitly not Normal, what is Normal?

A Role Cop is an investigative role that receives the role name of its target. In Normal games, this is "Cop", "Doctor", "Roleblocker, and so forth. There is no indication of the target's alignment; if a Mafia Goon is investigated, they return "Vanilla".

This version of the role, and only this version of the role, is considered Normal on mafiascum.net.

The wiki page already answered the question?

[Phoenicks]

Where does it say anything about modifiers like "Weak" or 'Naive"?

[Cheery Dog]

That's where the above in this thread comes about.

If you're just wanting normal, you don't have to worry about any of the mod noted stuff, because roles with mod notes aren't normal.

[kuribo]

Naïve Cop is Naïve Cop (assuming the role PM says "Naïve Cop")

Has there ever actually been a Naïve Cop where the role PM said Naïve Cop?

I've always wanted to give someone a Role PM telling them they're a Naïve Cop

(mod note: actually a Sane Cop)

.

You are a naive cop. (Mod note: is also a Lazy Cop)

[Zachrulez]

I've generally had mafia rolecops but if I used town ones too they probably wouldn't work the same way that the scum rolecop does.

The way I've resolved with mafia rolecops is either rolename or getting the role pm that was sent to the player they investigate. If the player doesn't know about their modifier then it wouldn't be known to the rolecop either. If they did have knowledge of their modifier, then that would come up if the version I was using got the role pm.

[Majiffy]

Naïve Cop is Naïve Cop (assuming the role PM says "Naïve Cop")

Has there ever actually been a Naïve Cop where the role PM said Naïve Cop?

I've always wanted to give someone a Role PM telling them they're a Naïve Cop

(mod note: actually a Sane Cop)

.

You are a naive cop. (Mod note: is also a Lazy Cop)

You are a

Lazy Cop.

Each night, you can attempt to motivate yourself to check someone's alignment. But probably you'll just sit on the couch and keep watching Netflix.

You win when no threats exist to the town.

[AngryPidgeon]

Role cop should get the role title as it will flip. If there are secret modifiers, then you are running a bastard game anyways so do whatever you want.

A miller's role title is miller. It will investigate as miller. Godfather protects against COPS not rolecops, at least in normals. I'd say a standard godfather would investigate as godfather. If you are moding a theme, you could make one that's immune to rolecops but that sounds like risky/bad game design.

Traitor will investigate as traitor. That is their role. They don't "become" a goon at any point. They may join the main team but their role title should be immutable.

[quadz08]

If there are secret modifiers, then you are running a bastard game anyways so do whatever you want.

Do you consider cop sanities to be bastard?

[FakeGod]

It is bastard, right?