Ethics of replacing into games when you have scumreads

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Consider the following scenario:
You and Player X are friends and you see player X playing a game and you want to play with Player X. But as it turns out, you think the slot you are replacing into is town and Player X is a strong scumread of yours. However, Player X is having a good game and is playing quite well. Do you still replace in anyways or do you refrain from replacing in to avoid ruining Player X's scumgame?

If you answered yes, replace in anyways: How would you feel if you were Player X and someone that you know and someone that can read you replaces into a game and pegs you as scum?

I think technically this is allowed. I'm wondering what it means from a social standpoint.

If you answered no, refrain: Would you always refrain from joining any games that you were following if you have any scumreads at all? Also, have you ever replaced into games where you found someone you know to be very town and you wanted to be town with them?

There are several scenarios I can think of that occurred in practice. I have refrained from replacing into games where I was scumreading people I know. I'm not sure exactly why, it just didn't feel right to replace in.

I have replaced into games as town where I was townreading people I know. I have also replaced into games as scum to see if I could manipulate a specific player(s) although that player typically likes being town more so I didn't feel guilty. If I had pegged them as scum, I wouldn't have replaced in as town and ruin that person's scumgame.

My ethical system is obviously incomplete and that's because I haven't worked out the exact ethics of it, i.e. how well do I have to know a person before I refrain from replacing into a townslot in a game where I'm scumreading them?

[Majiffy]

If you don't

know

the alignment of any player still participating that hasn't been mod-confirmed, then there's nothing wrong with replacing into the game.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

If you don't

know

the alignment of any player still participating that hasn't been mod-confirmed, then there's nothing wrong with replacing into the game.

I know that there is legally nothing wrong. But assuming you have a strong scumread on a player you can read very well and know decently well and you are fairly certain that they are scum and your track record indicates that you are probably not wrong about this read?

[fferyllt]

I don't think I've ever run into this issue when replacing into a game. I don't generally follow games thinking I might replace into them, and I'm pretty random about what I'll replace into as far as player lists go. I usually look at the last vote count and do a quick tone-based iso of the player I'd replace and weigh in how much karma the mod has with me (how much I enjoy their games, and if they make a habit of replacing into games, mine or otherwise).

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It's interesting to see replacing in as a favor or a service. I like replacing in just to replace in but I'm probably the exception.

[fferyllt]

It definitely factors in. I try to have at least one replacement game going most of the time, and there are always games going begging for replacements. I imagine most people are picky about replacing, but may have different criteria for choosing which of several games they'll consider.

[Majiffy]

If you don't

know

the alignment of any player still participating that hasn't been mod-confirmed, then there's nothing wrong with replacing into the game.

I know that there is legally nothing wrong. But assuming you have a strong scumread on a player you can read very well and know decently well and you are fairly certain that they are scum and your track record indicates that you are probably not wrong about this read?

There's nothing more ethically wrong with this than there is ethically wrong with joining a game from the start with a player you can read very well when that person could very well roll scum.

[zMuffinMan]

If you don't

know

the alignment of any player still participating that hasn't been mod-confirmed, then there's nothing wrong with replacing into the game.

I know that there is legally nothing wrong. But assuming you have a strong scumread on a player you can read very well and know decently well and you are fairly certain that they are scum and your track record indicates that you are probably not wrong about this read?

There's nothing more ethically wrong with this than there is ethically wrong with joining a game from the start with a player you can read very well when that person could very well roll scum.

This

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

So, consider a hypothetical: you are following a game and Mastin is scum and you are correctly reading Mastin as scum. You decide "holy fuck, Mastin is scum and playing well and the stupid town and are all buying her bullshit. Let me replace into a townslot and get Mastin lynched." This is fine according to your ethical system?

[GuyInFreezer]

Yeah. For all we know
1) you could replace into a scumslot on accident
2) mastin could actually be town.

no he can't

[Majiffy]

So, consider a hypothetical: you are following a game and Mastin is scum and you are correctly reading Mastin as scum. You decide "holy fuck, Mastin is scum and playing well and the stupid town and are all buying her bullshit. Let me replace into a townslot and get Mastin lynched." This is fine according to your ethical system?

Yep.

It's called actively changing your meta so that you can't be accurately read over periods of time.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It just feels wrong though. I initially had this impression because when Regfan replaced into games containing players he knew (like Empire), he'd check first to see if he's reading that player as town. And if not, then he wouldn't replace in. Part of me thinks THAT is unethical as it led to me correctly suspecting that something was wrong in Mafiascum Fantasy Camp II. But then the converse doesn't feel right either. Replacing in just to destroy someone's scumgame feels like a dick move and there were times when I thought it was best to stay away because if I replace in and nail that player, it would suck for that player. Example in Capcom, I was scumreading The Will of Heaven but then I thought replacing in just to tell everyone that Nacho was scum and should be lynched when he was playing so well otherwise would be dickish of me.

[zMuffinMan]

I wouldn't do that because it doesn't sound fun, but I don't see any ethical dilemma here. Ignoring the possibility you could be wrong in your read and the possibility you could be wrong about the alignment of the slot you're replacing into, this really is no different than asking whether you should even play with someone you can read that well to begin with. And while I think it's pointless to play with someone if you truly can read them with 100% accuracy, the better question is: is that even fun?

Also, seeing as mafia is a social game at its core, joining a game with the express interest of making someone else lose or forcing them to exit the game seems rather dumb. Not ethically wrong, per se... Just dumb.

[BROseidon]

Don't read games you might replace into.

Problem solved.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I replace into games that I think look fun so that's not an option.

[BROseidon]

I think that any form of selective replacing beyond just looking at the player list is unethical.

I also have extreme as fuck views.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yeah, that's extreme.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I wouldn't do that because it doesn't sound fun, but I don't see any ethical dilemma here. Ignoring the possibility you could be wrong in your read and the possibility you could be wrong about the alignment of the slot you're replacing into, this really is no different than asking whether you should even play with someone you can read that well to begin with. And while I think it's pointless to play with someone if you truly can read them with 100% accuracy, the better question is: is that even fun?

Also, seeing as mafia is a social game at its core, joining a game with the express interest of making someone else lose or forcing them to exit the game seems rather dumb. Not ethically wrong, per se... Just dumb.

I think I should have framed the OP as a "would you" question rather than one of ethical relevance. Because I'm interested in seeing where the line is on what people would do.

[Tammy]

It just feels wrong though. I initially had this impression because when Regfan replaced into games containing players he knew (like Empire), he'd check first to see if he's reading that player as town. And if not, then he wouldn't replace in. Part of me thinks THAT is unethical as it led to me correctly suspecting that something was wrong in Mafiascum Fantasy Camp II. But then the converse doesn't feel right either. Replacing in just to destroy someone's scumgame feels like a dick move and there were times when I thought it was best to stay away because if I replace in and nail that player, it would suck for that player. Example in Capcom, I was scumreading The Will of Heaven but then I thought replacing in just to tell everyone that Nacho was scum and should be lynched when he was playing so well otherwise would be dickish of me.

Right for the wrong reasons, Regfan was spoiled before the first replacement was needed.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I didn't know that. I still think he would have refrained from replacing in if he thought you guys were scum so my original concern still stands.

[Tammy]

I thought he would have gotten a kick out of lynching us.

I almost always ISO the slot I'd be replacing into, and if I think it's town I'm more likely to replace in. Sometimes I'll do a quick ISO read on another slot if I like playing with them and to get a feel for the game.

I don't know that I'd purposefully replace into a game so I could lynch someone I think I can read and they're having a good game though. I think I'd feel bad about it probably.

[Alchemist21]

It just feels wrong though. I initially had this impression because when Regfan replaced into games containing players he knew (like Empire), he'd check first to see if he's reading that player as town. And if not, then he wouldn't replace in. Part of me thinks THAT is unethical as it led to me correctly suspecting that something was wrong in Mafiascum Fantasy Camp II. But then the converse doesn't feel right either. Replacing in just to destroy someone's scumgame feels like a dick move and there were times when I thought it was best to stay away because if I replace in and nail that player, it would suck for that player. Example in Capcom, I was scumreading The Will of Heaven but then I thought replacing in just to tell everyone that Nacho was scum and should be lynched when he was playing so well otherwise would be dickish of me.

Right for the wrong reasons, Regfan was spoiled before the first replacement was needed.

How did a spoiled player mangage to be let into the game?

[Tammy]

He wasn't. He didn't replace in, and falcon suspected it was for the reasoning that the player scum read us and didn't want to play.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm interested in seeing where the line is on what people would do

This is the same as asking, "why do you play mafia?"

Or rather, "if I join X mafia game, what am I getting out of it?"

The answer depends on what you, as an individual, enjoy about a mafia game.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I thought he would have gotten a kick out of lynching us.

I almost always ISO the slot I'd be replacing into, and if I think it's town I'm more likely to replace in. Sometimes I'll do a quick ISO read on another slot if I like playing with them and to get a feel for the game.

I don't know that I'd purposefully replace into a game so I could lynch someone I think I can read and they're having a good game though. I think I'd feel bad about it probably.

I'm not talking about doing it purposefully. I'm saying if I want to replace into the game, should I actively refrain because I have a strong scumread on Player X that I can read and me replacing in would ruin Player X's game and likely cause him to lose. Or rather would you? I agree that you probably shouldn't purposefully replace into a game to lynch someone.