Proposal: Ban fake hammers in newbie games

[quadz08]

Like kat said, most mods have a rule along the lines of "if it looks like it's supposed to be a vote, then it counts as a vote"

[ZZZX]

the way those hammers usually work is by double voting trick (someone who is already in the wagon drops a fake hammer)
nut i dont see newbies falling for it where the player count is that low.

[T-Bone]

I'm all for banning foulplay, I just don't see what the argument is about. Formatting tricks are covered by the rules, and everything else is covered by allowing the Mod to be the authority on when lynches happen as opposed to the player. If you think you've been lynched, shut up, (especially if scum).

[xRECKONERx]

I'm against banning "this is totally the fifth vote and not the fourth!" reaction tests--people in this thread have made strong arguments for why. (And just imagine what a headache it'd be to enforce: "You knew that the mod's votecount had an error when you made that fakehammer." "No, I didn't!")

I'm more on the fence about sneakily formatted trick votes. It's something I feel more comfortable leaving up to individual moderators to enforce rather than make a blanket policy against it, since I'm

laissez-faire

by nature. (I'm also not convinced newbies in particular need to be sheltered from it.) But I'd consider setting one if there was a strong push for it from the community.

When this was brought up six years ago during my first newbie game, this was the consensus. Saying something like, "I'm hammering" when you're not the hammer, that's completely fine.

Going:

Vote

:

xRECKONERx

And then "fake-hammering" because it looks like a vote but it isn't due to the nonbolded colon... that's some bullshit. It means someone can be caught on a bullshit technicality when their play the entire game had otherwise fleeced the competition.

[T-Bone]

What Mod wouldn't count that as a vote? I'd count that as a vote and not think twice about it.

[xRECKONERx]

I mean, that's the only form of "fake hammering" I think isn't okay.

Or rather, "fake voting"... you're in 3p LyLo. You're the last scum. One town fake votes another town to bait you into hammering.

[Trojan Horse]

I mean, that's the only form of "fake hammering" I think isn't okay.

Or rather, "fake voting"... you're in 3p LyLo. You're the last scum. One town fake votes another town to bait you into hammering.

I concur with Reckoner. This kind of trick is DEFINITELY not okay.

[N]

Would Thesp's votecounter be able to pick that up?

[xRECKONERx]

I mean, that's the only form of "fake hammering" I think isn't okay.

Or rather, "fake voting"... you're in 3p LyLo. You're the last scum. One town fake votes another town to bait you into hammering.

I concur with Reckoner. This kind of trick is DEFINITELY not okay.

*rage*

[Albert B. Rampage]

Count your votes.

[T S O]

Format fake voting is stupid and the mod should treat it as real.

Most people on this site, if this ban is enforced, will proceed to perform this trick as soon as the player leaves TRTR; it's counter-productive, really. You may as well also ban Cop fakeclaiming results and gambits of that sort, because the effect becomes the same.

Many newbies these days are resilient enough to not immediately cave in, and this will only affect scum newbies in an adverse way, who normally play more carefully than their usual anyway. The actual population of players who will be tricked by this, are scum, are newbies and happen to fall into the situation is low enough to justify it being allowed all by itself.

I realise the intentions you had with making this post, and I admire that, but I disagree with the idea a lot.

[Egg]

Like kat said, most mods have a rule along the lines of "if it looks like it's supposed to be a vote, then it counts as a vote"

My way still works unless you are granting me a double vote.

I mean, that's the only form of "fake hammering" I think isn't okay.

Or rather, "fake voting"... you're in 3p LyLo. You're the last scum. One town fake votes another town to bait you into hammering.

I concur with Reckoner. This kind of trick is DEFINITELY not okay.

This post is funny because of who made it lol

[Cabd]

Fakehammers can and have won me games.

[T-Bone]

I mean, that's the only form of "fake hammering" I think isn't okay.

Or rather, "fake voting"... you're in 3p LyLo. You're the last scum. One town fake votes another town to bait you into hammering.

I concur with Reckoner. This kind of trick is DEFINITELY not okay.

But again how can you fake vote? I have yet to see an example of this 'fakevote' that would warrant this kind of rule.

[xRECKONERx]

Look at the thread linked earlier.

Troj & I were in a game together, my first newbie game, where this happened.

[T S O]

but that was like a decade ago

[Kublai Khan]

Fake hammers are a legitimate reaction test - one of the few that can still be effective, given you aren't playing with super experienced players that keep a mental note of the vote counts pretty much page by page.

I don't keep a mental note, but I can still respond in a "townie" way to a fake hammer. Every single time. Hell, I've coasted to endgame as scum because of a "town" reaction to a fake hammer.

It simply does not work against players more than exactly once.

This.

[Zachrulez]

but that was like a decade ago

Doesn't make the issue it brought up any less relevant.

[T-Bone]

Look at the thread linked earlier.

Troj & I were in a game together, my first newbie game, where this happened.

I skimmed through the thread....it looked like in the game in question the Mod had very specific voting rules, which allowed someone to cast an illegal vote? Then that's a failure of the Mod for creating a situation where illegal votes can happen. Not to argue semantics, but I don't know any Mods who wouldn't count the vote that happened in that game as a legal vote now. Thus, this really isn't something that can be policed on a site-wide level, it's down to the Mod to not be so crazy specific with voting rules AND down to the players not to make assumptions without the Mod to confirm. And that's something the IC of a newbie game can teach early on in Day 1. Don't assume any result (lynch, whatever) is final until the Mod confirms it. If anything we can make it something the IC should try to teach new players not to do. And Mods shouldn't be creating situations where formatting errors (intentional or not) should trump common sense about voting.

Assuming the game has ended, I'd like to see the example the OP is talking about.

[Cabd]

Fakehammers can and have won me games.

My point being, even banning them as a concept in newbie games just sets you up to get hit by them OUTSIDE of the road to rome.

And as kuribo mentioned, counterplay to them is just as important to learn as not falling for them.

[Psyche]

Look at the thread linked earlier.

Troj & I were in a game together, my first newbie game, where this happened.

I mean, that's the only form of "fake hammering" I think isn't okay.

Or rather, "fake voting"... you're in 3p LyLo. You're the last scum. One town fake votes another town to bait you into hammering.

I concur with Reckoner. This kind of trick is DEFINITELY not okay. :igmeou:

i love this forum

[PokerFace]

Fake votes/hammers are banned in all my games. If it looks like a vote, it's treated like a vote, or I think its a vote, then its a vote!

Instances where a player 'actually' miscounts the number of votes on another or the same player, can't be helped. Players will react different ways pending on 'whom' truly miscounted and since one can always fake act on a forum with its lack of body language, its best for the mod to just to let those things play out however

Instances where a player purposely lies about how many votes are on another player I have never come across. As a mod I would allow this since lying is part of mafia, but as a player I wouldn't be a fan of playing with that liar again

[Psyche]

that's not how you use 'whom'

[PokerFace]

my grammar has always been bad so that doesn't surprise me. As long as my point gets across, the means at which I get it across doesn't really matter to me.

This is likely further reason why I support "If it looks like a vote, it's treated like a vote, or I think its a vote, then its a vote!"

UNVOTE: Nixon VOTE: JFK is the same as VOTE: John F Kennedy and

Vote

:

Jon Kenedy

. Get your trick votes out of my house!

[Majiffy]

While I appreciate the unvoting of Nixon in favor of voting JFK, too soon.