All or Nothing Mechanic?

[House]

Has anyone considered running a game with an All or Nothing type mechanic?

ie: Before any scum are killed, you can take a guess as to the entire scum team and your team wins if you're right. However, you are instalynched if you are wrong and the mod doesn't say which (if any) of your guesses were correct.

[Vi]

I've thought about a few ways this could be implemented (not just now, but in the past, even trying to design a game around the "call-them-all" mechanic) and all of them aren't very good.

[Bicephalous Bob]

I used this role in Fever Dream Mafia:

You are a Town Innocent Scumhunter. You are publicly confirmed to have this role at the start of day 1. You win if you fulfill one of the following conditions:

-You're still alive when all threats to the town are eliminated.
-You submit a correct set of players on the same night you're nightkilled. If you're nightkilled, it doesn't matter to you if the town wins. However, the less non-town players are alive, the easier it is to submit a correct set.

Every night, you may submit a set of players, sized the total number of living players minus the number of players needed to lynch someone. You win if you, on the night you're killed, submit a set containing all anti-town players or if your entire set consists of anti-town players. You lose by default if you're lynched or endgamed or if you fail to submit a set on the night you're killed.

The game will continue after you reach your non-standard win condition. No one but you will be told if you won the game.

PM me your role name to confirm.

I don't think it'd be hard to change it to a role the entire town could have.

[Bicephalous Bob]

Like

You are a Town Scumhunter. You win if one of the following conditions is fulfilled:

-You're still alive when all threats to the town are eliminated.
-All threats to the town are eliminated after you're lynched.
-You submit a correct set of players on the same night you're nightkilled. If you're nightkilled, it doesn't matter to you if the town wins. However, the less non-town players are alive, the easier it is to submit a correct set.

Every night, you may submit a set of players, sized the total number of living players minus the number of players needed to lynch someone. You win if you, on the night you're killed, submit a set containing all anti-town players or if your entire set consists of anti-town players. You lose by default if you're endgamed or if you fail to submit a set on the night you're killed.

The game will continue after you reach your non-standard win condition. No one but you will be told if you won the game.

PM me your role name to confirm.

[House]

That's a pretty cool role. Along the same lines as what I was thinking, but not quite. I was thinking of something with a bit of a gambler's mechanic. High risk/high reward.

Your Town Scumhunter is a Hail Mary, not a spin of the roulette wheel with all the chips on the table.

I like it, though.

[wgeurts]

Or a 3 scum 4 town setup, all or nothing.

[Aeronaut]

Yea, this is an awesome idea. If the guess is made and is right, the town wins, but if it's made and it's wrong, that person is immediately lynched and it goes into night phase. Pretty big gamble.

[droog]

we could kill the
"i know scum but you're too stupid to listen"
thing

but what do you do for scum
cause town with strong opinions would suicide
scum couldnt

[Micc]

3 Mafia Goons
4 Vanilla Townies

If a Vanilla Townie is lynched Day1, the remaining Vanilla Townies get a chance to guess the scumteam. If any of them get it right then Town wins. If all are wrong then Mafia wins. If a Mafia Goon is lynched Day1, the Mafia makes a nightkill and the game continues 2vs3.

If a Vanilla Townie is lynched Day2, then the lynched player gets a chance to guess the scumteam. If right then town win, wrong then Mafia Win. If a goon is lynched Day 2 then Town wins.

Just a thought. I havent thought very deeply about balance or breaking strategies quite yet.

[ZZZX]

3 Mafia Goons
4 Vanilla Townies

If a Vanilla Townie is lynched Day1, the remaining Vanilla Townies get a chance to guess the scumteam. If any of them get it right then Town wins. If all are wrong then Mafia wins. If a Mafia Goon is lynched Day1, the Mafia makes a nightkill and the game continues 2vs3.

If a Vanilla Townie is lynched Day2, then the lynched player gets a chance to guess the scumteam. If right then town win, wrong then Mafia Win. If a goon is lynched Day 2 then Town wins.

Just a thought. I havent thought very deeply about balance or breaking strategies quite yet.

Looks aweasom but breakable

[Micc]

Been thinking about it, and I dont think its breakable. Only potential breaking point I can see is coordination of guesses in the case of a D1 mislynch. There are 6nCr3 = 20 possible combinations of scum teams between the remaining players. Way to many to cover between the players (i think).

A VT has a 1/5nCr3 = 0.1 = 10% chance to guess correctly after a D1 mislynch.
Assuming there is corridination thats a 30% chance town wins after D1 mislynch.

The lynched VT has a 1/3 = 33 % chance to guess correctly after a D2 mislynch.

So all together the town win rate is:
4/7 * 3/10 + 3/7 * 1/3 = 0.314 = 31.4%

Thats a bit low. Letting the lynched player make a guess after D1 mislynch improves the overall to 34.3%.

I fact that the scum team cannot quick hammer for risk of being guessed correctly makes this a pretty interesting idea.

[ZZZX]

A B C D E F


half are town
scum compinations ( ABC ABD ABE ABF ABG ACD ACF ACG ADE ADF ADG AEF AEG AFG BCD BCE BCF BCG BDE BDF BDG BEF BEG BFG CDE CDF CDG CEF CEG CFG)

if you remove a (cus u are a)
BCD BCE BCF BCG BDE BDF BEF BEG BFG CDE CDF CDG CEF CEG CFG

if every 2 players coordinated in a way to consider both of them as town: (remove b)
CDE CDF CEF (6 remains aka pick 3 out of 4)


if 3 groups of people (considering worst case senario of 2 town teams and one scum team work it up it will be a case of:)
both town group:(if existant) will have a 2/3 chance of wining it.
A: picks one compination CDE
B: picks another CDF
2 normal group like that and 2 people who freely mix thier vote between the groups

generally with a little bit of scum hunting it will be pretty fine

if its 4p then its pretty much simpler (above needs work)

a b c d

cd as scum

groups system:

one group that votes for anyone not included in group:

A-B: CD = win

1 free lancers who vote for one person in the group and the guy next to him
2nd guy votes for everyone in the group

if any of ab are scum and c is town then its a 75%
if ab are town its a 100%
if c+ someone from ab is scum the game is lost
otherwise it is won

its a case of getting a 65-70% chance of victory,

if it went into more detailed work it can be better

that is assuming a mislynch all the time.

[Micc]

I'm not following any of that.

Why do you use letters A-G (7 players) when there are only 6 players in play?
Where are you taking into consideration that half of the preclaimed guesses will be coming from scum and thus cannot cause the town to win?

I'm aware that the Day 2 guess is broken if the non mislynched townies are allowed to guess. Thats why I designed it for the lynched townie to be the only one who guesses.

I started to work it out on my own, but have basketball to watch so it will have to wait.

[SilverWolf]

Been thinking about it, and I dont think its breakable. Only potential breaking point I can see is coordination of guesses in the case of a D1 mislynch. There are 6nCr3 = 20 possible combinations of scum teams between the remaining players. Way to many to cover between the players (i think).

A VT has a 1/5nCr3 = 0.1 = 10% chance to guess correctly after a D1 mislynch.
Assuming there is corridination thats a 30% chance town wins after D1 mislynch.

The lynched VT has a 1/3 = 33 % chance to guess correctly after a D2 mislynch.

So all together the town win rate is:
4/7 * 3/10 + 3/7 * 1/3 = 0.314 = 31.4%

Thats a bit low. Letting the lynched player make a guess after D1 mislynch improves the overall to 34.3%.

I fact that the scum team cannot quick hammer for risk of being guessed correctly makes this a pretty interesting idea.

I think it would be an interesting idea for a test micro game.

[ZZZX]

I'm not following any of that.

Why do you use letters A-G (7 players) when there are only 6 players in play?
Where are you taking into consideration that half of the preclaimed guesses will be coming from scum and thus cannot cause the town to win?

I'm aware that the Day 2 guess is broken if the non mislynched townies are allowed to guess. Thats why I designed it for the lynched townie to be the only one who guesses.

I started to work it out on my own, but have basketball to watch so it will have to wait.

G is the dead guy

If only lynched guy can pick then its more do-able

Also in the 3v3 if scum wasn't in the group I spoke about town has a 75-80% chance of getting it right

[Gammagooey]

I remember there being an old game with something vaguely similar to this in it- town got a vengekill after being nightkilled, and the win condition for every townie was
*survive until there are no remaining threats to the town, or shoot scum with your vengekill*

that seemed to work pretty well while still being a multi-day game that can use flips and connections to scumhunt.

[House]

I remember there being an old game with something vaguely similar to this in it- town got a vengekill after being nightkilled, and the win condition for every townie was
*survive until there are no remaining threats to the town, or shoot scum with your vengekill*

that seemed to work pretty well while still being a multi-day game that can use flips and connections to scumhunt.

This brought another idea to mind...

A game with all vengeful townies and scum doesn't have NK.

Alternative, a game with all townies being a hidden PGO with a secondary 1-shot ability that can target another player. <-- That would be a hystericlops bastard game.

[Micc]

I'm taking discussion of my setup idea to a more appropriate thread. Feel free to comment there!