New Normal Guidelines - April 2017 update!

[RichardGHP]

Mostly because we didn't want SOME games having kill flavor and SOME games not having kill flavor. We don't think the source of various different kills should be given away in the flavor.

Please tell me mods can still use non-indicative kill flavours if they're marked as such in the rules.

[StrangerCoug]

That's... not what I said.

I don't understand how I misunderstood your post.

[PokerFace]

The Motion Detector learns if any actions were performed by or on a player, but not what they were, or who else was involved.

Is the following a valid Motion Detector result?

(Yes, at least one or No) action was performed by bob last night
(Yes, at least one or No) action was perfomed on bob last night

[PokerFace]

can we have an Outgoing Motion Detector (see only if they did any) or Incoming Motion Detector (Sees only if someone else targeted them)?

[mastin2]

can we have an Outgoing Motion Detector (see only if they did any) or Incoming Motion Detector (Sees only if someone else targeted them)?

Let's just say it's a subject of extreme contention. (I probably am not allowed to say more.)

[GreyICE]

Isn't that just a voyeur/follower?

If not, is the difference large enough to be worth splitting hairs over? A role should be distinct from another role enough that there's no confusion as to which is which.

[BBmolla]

Voyeur/Follower specifies what action was performed. Motion Detector does not.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Isn't that just a voyeur/follower?

If not, is the difference large enough to be worth splitting hairs over? A role should be distinct from another role enough that there's no confusion as to which is which.

The outgoing motion detector doesn't detect whether their target has made a kill, so that alone makes it quite a bit different from follower.

[GreyICE]

Alright...

So is there design space for:
A role who learns who a person targeted at night
A role who learns what a person did at night
A role that learns if a person did something at night
A role that learns if a person can do something at night
A role that learns if a person was targeted at night
A role that learns what targeted a person at night
A role that learns if a person was targeted at night
A role that learns if a person targeted someone or was targeted by someone at night

I'd say that that is an overly complex design space that gives you virtually nothing in return. And your proposed addons are terrible - Outgoing motion detector could be fine as "Vanilla Cop" and do the same thing, and incoming motion detector seems like it has a 99.5% chance of giving pretty much the same info a voyeur does.

[PokerFace]

I'm still waiting on exact clarification but I believe Motion detector sees the exitance of motion. Did this happen, Yes or No?

Voyeur and follower get to know if something happened and what that something was

Let's say bob is a vigilante and he killed Mike. And Joe Protected bob last night

-Voyeur targets Bob and sees he was protected
-Follower targets bob and sees he killed someone
-Motion detector targets bob and sees "Yes he performed action(s) last night" and "Yes action(s) were performed on him last night"

Outgoing and incoming variants would work similarly but are ultimately very weak

[PokerFace]

Alright...

So is there design space for:
A role who learns who a person targeted at night
A role who learns what a person did at night
A role that learns if a person did something at night
A role that learns if a person can do something at night
A role that learns if a person was targeted at night
A role that learns what targeted a person at night
A role that learns if a person was targeted at night
A role that learns if a person targeted someone or was targeted by someone at night

I'd say that that is an overly complex design space that gives you virtually nothing in return.

And your proposed add ons are terrible - Outgoing motion detector could be fine as "Vanilla Cop" and do the same thing, and incoming motion detector seems like it has a 99.5% chance of giving pretty much the same info a voyeur does.

I believe the point you are making is correct, but I still want to know if it "could" be done out of curiosity

"Should" it be done given the high complexity and the low payoff... probably not

[vonflare]

I call thinking up the names of the roles.

A role who learns who a person targeted at night
A role who learns what a person did at night
A role that learns if a person did something at night
A role that learns if a person can do something at night
A role that learns if a person was targeted at night
A role that learns what targeted a person at night
A role that learns if a person was targeted at night
A role that learns if a person targeted someone or was targeted by someone at night

Tracker
Follower
Interrogator (WHAT DID YOU DO LAST NIGHT?)
Asker (what are you doing tonight?)
Watcher
Voyeur
Confessor (be honest. Has anyone visited you recently?)
Detector

[PokerFace]

All of those have already been named vonflare

A role who learns who a person targeted at night = Tracker
A role who learns what a person did at night = Follower
A role that learns if a person

did something

at night = Outgoing Motion Detector
A role that learns if a person

can do something

at night = Vanilla Cop
A role that learns if a person

was targeted

at night = Incoming Motion Detctor (The same thing is on both lines)
A role that learns what targeted a person at night = Voyeur
A role that learns if a person was targeted at night = Incoming Motion Detctor (The same thing is on both lines)

A role that learns who targeted a person at night = Watcher

A role that learns if a person targeted someone and/or was targeted by someone at night = Motion Detector

[vonflare]

My names r better.

[GreyICE]

Oh I did double up. Heh. I was probably thinking Role Cop in there too, as Role Cop is pretty similar to Vanilla Cop, just with a little extra bang.

[PokerFace]

yep^

@mods, am I right on exactly what a motion detector is? Can you have incoming and outgoing only versions in normal games?

getting final clarification so we can conclude this talk. (Mastin did not truly clarify both)

[quadz08]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... n_Detector

Yes, I believe your explanation of Motion Detector is functionally correct.

Incoming or Outgoing motion detector would be a greylist role - neither are explicitly whitelisted.

[GreyICE]

Greylist, but please don't do them.

Difference between Outgoing motion detector and Vanilla Cop

Outgoing motion detector is much more confusing, will nearly always require mod clarification, doesn't detect roles that have been roleblocked (further hampering the role) and can only sometimes catch fake-claiming scum. Is swingier, since you get the edge case of targeting the NK person and having that person claim VT, but usually will be useless.

Vanilla Cop: Extra roles detected (in a normal): Bulletproof, Neighbors, Masons, Miller, Innocent Child, Godfather

That's a really thin line to parse.

Incoming Motion detector

*Bob dies*
"Guyz, Bob was targeted last night! Guyz, I have a role that tells me Bob was targeted last night. You'll never believe it!"

[PokerFace]

I support^

[Wake1]

Do any of these new roles help correct swinginess when it comes to multiple Scum factions?

[Marquis]

a commuter of any alignment has the chance to, as does a rolestopper variant that blocks kills

however in practice these'll have about the same effectiveness as the bulletproof/protective roles town already has had, unless you apply commuter to scum/sk to decide between killing or commuting, but again minor things

[Bicephalous Bob]

Not a role, but I think the double day mechanic is Normal now, which would play nicely with multiple killing factions.

[Wake1]

Double Day mechanic?

I've never heard of that..

[StrangerCoug]

Double Day mechanic?

I've never heard of that..

Basically, every

OTHER

lynch is followed by night instead of every single lynch.

[Wake1]

Double Day mechanic?

I've never heard of that..

Basically, every

OTHER

lynch is followed by night instead of every single lynch.

...

Has this been part of Normal gameplay?

Sounds like Half-Nightless.