New Normal Guidelines - April 2017 update!

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chilledtea
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Post Post #300  (ISO)  » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:16 pm

Miller can claim on day 1 and clear themselves. Godfathers will obviously not.

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Post Post #301  (ISO)  » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:17 pm

Millers will claim either before or after insepction as they are town - it's quite a different ballpark to "yep innocent result they're town"
There's a difference between being unable to trust innocents and being unable to trust guilties

Those are the main two points I can think of
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pisskop
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Post Post #302  (ISO)  » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:18 pm

They mentioned that they wanted people to play differently if a godfather was present, but instead too often dont and they lose because of a godfather.

Thats never happened in games Im in, but I would imagine that besides being less popular the miller isnt 'an autoloss' situation. Millers should claim at onset, so most millers dont get a chance to suprise guilty. And even then the mislynch isnt quite the same as failing to lynch and otherwise scummy player.


As stated above, Ive always seen a lot of people speccing about a godfather, even if one doesnt exist, so Im not sure where they are seeing godfather skating by.
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Post Post #303  (ISO)  » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:24 pm

Well, regarding the redlisting options Callforjudgement posted, I'd be in favour of option 2, adding a disclaimer.
With themes you have an optional disclaimer of calling ylour game "bastard", I think you could have a "normal-extended" disclaimer, which would allow for a few extra roles and modifiers, like godfather.
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Post Post #304  (ISO)  » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:08 pm

The reason Millers are allowed is that a townie knows that the role is in the game already. Of course, the other townies might not believe them, but there's no incorrect information going round; the townie gets a Miller role, the townie claims (99% of the time), the cop doesn't investigate them (again 99% of the time).

If scum get a Godfather role, they obviously won't claim it, thus there's no clue known to any Town player that the investigation isn't reliable other than dayplay, and Townies rarely trust dayplay reads over Cop results. (I'm vaguely reminded of the Fairy Godfather gambit at this point.)
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BulletNLynchproof
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Post Post #305  (ISO)  » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:06 pm

Millers don't have the problem that Godfathers have. In the worst case scenario, a Cop investigating a Miller will result in a mislynch on the miller and the Cop getting NKed. This is nothing compared to a Cop investigating a Godfather, which is almost autoloss for town, especially if the Cop claims his results.
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Post Post #306  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:14 pm

Well, then why is Ninja whitelisted? Plus, I like Ninja.
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Post Post #307  (ISO)  » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:17 pm

Because someone seen as not targeting anyone on the night that someone dies isn't an instant "yes they're town".
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Post Post #308  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:27 pm

In post 305, BulletNLynchproof wrote:Millers don't have the problem that Godfathers have. In the worst case scenario, a Cop investigating a Miller will result in a mislynch on the miller and the Cop getting NKed. This is nothing compared to a Cop investigating a Godfather, which is almost autoloss for town, especially if the Cop claims his results.


I didn't like the decision to remove GF but put this way it makes sense

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Post Post #309  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:31 pm

Maybe if any cop-messing roles are included the cop (and only the cop) is aware that they exist?

For example,

You are a COP.
you know that there is a lawyer in this setup.

or something like that

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Post Post #310  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:35 pm

That's what I suggested, for the record.
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Post Post #311  (ISO)  » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:03 am

Millers are just terrible.

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Post Post #312  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 8:09 am

This has actually been sitting in my to-do list since the middle of last month, but I didn't want to have two updates in the same month because that way madness lies.

In post 0, N wrote:Update 7 May 2016
  • Althought it has always been unofficially part of the guidelines, "Mafia must specify which member is performing the factional kill each night. Mods may choose whether or not to allow Mafia power roles to perform their action as well as their factional kill on the same night or not, and should list this choice in their rules" has now been added to the wiki page.
  • Balance is now explicitly part of being Normal, and so "normalcy-only reviews" will no longer be offered. This does not affect any games which have already passed review.
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Post Post #313  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 8:13 am

Curious

Since Godfather is removed

Should a Mafia Doctor in a setup with a Gunsmith and no non-Mafia killing roles be blacklisted too? It serves virtually the same purpose.
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callforjudgement
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Post Post #314  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 8:14 am

The whole point of Gunsmith is that it has potential false positives and false negatives, in a way that can be predicted / isn't bastard. So I guess it'd make more sense to blacklist Gunsmith if you're worried about that.
Really, Gunsmith is basically a Normalized version of an imperfectly-sane cop who knows that there are ways they can be mislead.
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chilledtea
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Post Post #315  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 8:17 am

If there is mafia doc, then there should be a killing force capable of killing mafia. In that case, town can take enough precautions wrt gunsmith's results.

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Post Post #316  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 8:30 am

please omit the grey roles.

Your not letting people use them anyway becuase their not normal so whats the usage of them being there? add commuter and some common gray roles to green list though. this way the setups are extremely more solidified.
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callforjudgement
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Post Post #317  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 8:38 am

Plenty of games have greylist roles in. The main idea is to be able to try out new roles that aren't clearly inappropriate for Normals to see if they should be whitelisted in the future.
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Ircher
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Post Post #318  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 8:54 am

In post 312, N wrote:This has actually been sitting in my to-do list since the middle of last month, but I didn't want to have two updates in the same month because that way madness lies.

In post 0, N wrote:Update 7 May 2016
  • Althought it has always been unofficially part of the guidelines, "Mafia must specify which member is performing the factional kill each night. Mods may choose whether or not to allow Mafia power roles to perform their action as well as their factional kill on the same night or not, and should list this choice in their rules" has now been added to the wiki page.
  • Balance is now explicitly part of being Normal, and so "normalcy-only reviews" will no longer be offered. This does not affect any games which have already passed review.

Dang.

I had a plan to run a large normal after my mini finishes but not check it for balance. Oh well, maybe it will still pass a balance review.
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Post Post #319  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 8:55 am

In post 314, callforjudgement wrote:The whole point of Gunsmith is that it has potential false positives and false negatives, in a way that can be predicted / isn't bastard. So I guess it'd make more sense to blacklist Gunsmith if you're worried about that.
Really, Gunsmith is basically a Normalized version of an imperfectly-sane cop who knows that there are ways they can be mislead.

But... isn't a Cop exactly the same? Everyone knows that Millers and Godfathers exist. It always has had some potential false positives and negatives. I don't see how it functions any differently besides the false positives and negatives falling on different roles.
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Post Post #320  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 8:56 am

In post 315, chilledtea wrote:If there is mafia doc, then there should be a killing force capable of killing mafia. In that case, town can take enough precautions wrt gunsmith's results.
Did you miss the part where I said
In post 313, Davsto wrote:a Mafia Doctor in a setup with a Gunsmith and no non-Mafia killing roles
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Post Post #321  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 8:57 am

Really, I dont think Mafia Docs + Gunsmith should be allowed if Cop + Godfather isnt allowed.
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Post Post #322  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 9:13 am

It should be allowed when the Mafia Doc has a function, such as protecting from a vigilante/sk. This generally provides a superbig hint that it does exist in the setup, particularly if a kill fails to go through and there is no reason given by town players.

I'm not saying any good setup maker would use a Mafia Doc when there is no vigilante but there is a gunsmith.

I'm merely pointing out a potential loophole that should be closed, and not in an unofficial "oh the NRG will stop that" kind of way, I mean an actual definitive rule.
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chilledtea
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Post Post #323  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 10:24 am

Yeah it's the same thing if there is no killing force other than mafia unless it is multiball mafia.

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Post Post #324  (ISO)  » Sat May 07, 2016 12:50 pm

A cop checks a player's alignment, a gunsmith checks if a player has a gun.
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