Commonly Used Terms and Your Reaction to Them

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Commonly Used Terms and Your Reaction to Them

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:03 am

Post by Varsoon »

There's a good deal of site-meta and commonly used terms on this site, but I wonder if we're all engaging with them in the same way?
Here's how I see a lot of the common terms on this site:
Occam's Razor:
"I don't want to overthink this game but I want to be justified for taking the path of least resistance."
WIFOM:
"I can't accurately assess if you're rusing me or not."
IIOA:
"Nice points but I'd like to disregard them."
Meta:
"Because you've played other games on site, I want to add perceived validity to whatever my point is."

Maybe I'm totally jaded, but with mafia as a game of rhetoric, it feels like adopting terminology is a quick means to assume some authority where you might otherwise have none.

What do you guys think? How do you engage with certain terms? What do you 'buy into' and what could you care less about?
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:47 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

i don't think i've ever used the term WIFOM to dismiss something (i prefer assessing the likelihood of different scenarios, and "WIFOM" feels like an incredibly lazy way to dismiss things) though i have acknowledged that people could dismiss something i say as WIFOM just to pre-empt massive levels of stupidity (because, really, i have no better way to describe anyone who tries to dismiss something as "WIFOM")

i don't recall using the terms occam's razor to justify a read, though i have pointed out that extremely convoluted scenarios are far less likely than simpler answers - i encourage people to justify convoluted thought processes though if they believe it's more likely, but if they can't then the simpler answer is usually a stronger point

i sometimes use IIoA as shorthand when referring to long posts or a series of posts in which someone writes a lot of words but does no
actual
analysis. you know, the kinds of walls where someone goes "this happened and this point and then this happened and then this happened and then this happened.
FOS
" but that is because i prefer people to actually talk about why they think something is scummy over giving me a narration of events that happened in a game i also happen to be reading

meta is a heavily abused word - everyone is a meta expert apparently

i have problems with people abusing simple words like 'scummy', 'genuine' ("that rage felt genuine" "so?" "so it's town" "..."), 'rolefishing' (maybe this was a scum tell in like... 2002?) and actually just any outdated 'scum tells' that were never actually valid in the first place
spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:06 am

Post by Varsoon »

Well, there's definitely ways to tell if someone is being genuine or scummy in skype mafia or playing face-to-face, but I think forum mafia is so removed from all that.
Even if you get really frustrated with someone, you still have time to review your post and submit it. Everything's filtered.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:10 am

Post by Espeonage »

IIoA I feel is linked very closely to active lurking and looking busy without actually doing anything.
Wifom's true meaning got lost years ago.
Occam's Razor has a place but that place is usually not when it's being used simply because in closed games Occam's Razor isn't actually right very often.
Meta can die in a hole.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:12 am

Post by Varsoon »

Oh, man, lurking.
I've seen that thrown around on both sides of the fence.
I think there's a really fine line between people just not being around and people intentionally ducking out and coasting through a game via lurking.
I wish everyone was clear on the division between those things, though.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:47 am

Post by Espeonage »

Lurking is not scummy. Doing no work under the pretense of claiming you are doing work is scummy.
Don't @ me.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:10 am

Post by Ether »

You might enjoy this thread.

I don't think it's fair to say those words are meaningless, even though it's easy for a lazy person to misuse them. And honestly, even though your definition of Occam's Razor tries to frame it as stupid, "not overthinking this game" is a perfectly reasonable and justifiable thing to do.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:26 am

Post by Elbirn »

In post 0, Varsoon wrote:
Occam's Razor:
"I don't want to overthink this game but I want to be justified for taking the path of least resistance."
WIFOM:
"I can't accurately assess if you're rusing me or not."
IIOA:
"Nice points but I'd like to disregard them."
Meta:
"Because you've played other games on site, I want to add perceived validity to whatever my point is."


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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:26 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 0, Varsoon wrote:
Occam's Razor:
As has been said, has its place.

Most of the time, if you come up with a contrived, convoluted explanation for events, it's gonna be wrong, when the far simpler explanation is that you went wrong. In short, ignoring Occam's Razor brings you dangerously close to morphing the evidence to fit the read, rather than the other way around as it should be.

That being said, the scumteams that get Scummy Nommed the most generally are known for their flagrant violation of Occam's Razor. After all, which is simpler? The scum mislynched everyone suspicious of them and killed for chaos, or that the scum just killed who suspected them? *coughcoughTALESOFYOUcoughcough*

WIFOM:
I will rage a rage like no other when people (other than newbies who don't know better) use "but, wifom!" in a game. (And even the newbies I'll give a serious lecture to about how if they ever want to make it far in the world, they will forget that term ever was invented.) Wifom, like ignoring Occam's Razor, is very, VERY frequently invoked by players that are going down the road of ignoring simple, clear, probable evidence in favor of contrived, convoluted paranoid delusions.

IIOA:
An outdated term for the most part, but can still be convenient shorthand. It's basic meaning is tied to active lurking: "that post that you're saying is content? Really isn't; nothing was done in it."

Meta:
Is, by 95% of people, done wrong. "X did this in game Y as town, and didn't do it in game Z as scum, therefore is town" = you're doing it horribly, horribly wrong.
"X has a strong tendency to do Y as town and not as scum, as games 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 as town show and games 1, 2, 3, and 4 show as scum." Not great, but better. Adding a disclaimer might help: "So while it's no sure bet that X having done Y makes X town, I find it at least more probable than not." Still not perfect, of course, but it is at least not as horrible.
In general, greater sample size and greater ambiguity and less assurance of accuracy are what makes meta be more effective: the more games you play with them, the better your understanding of them is. The less specific your focus is, the harder it is for the player to have changed. The more you use it as a guideline rather than hardfast rule, the better its usage will be.

Context is key. Circumstances are everything. And on top of that, players change. These three factors must, must, MUST be accounted for in meta analysis, else the meta is worthless.

In post 1, zMuffinMan wrote:'scummy'
Should not be confused with scum, which should not be confused with anti-town, which should not be confused with a scumtell. Pet peeve of mine when people do. I say as shorthand all the time, "sure it was scummy, doesn't mean it was from scum". Scummy means 'looks (sometimes objectively, sometimes subjectively) suspicious' to me, scumtell is an action that is objectively more likely to come from scum than from town (by the way, while we're on the subject, there's no such thing as a general scumtell, but PLAYER-SPECIFIC scumtells do in fact exist), anti-town means "works against the town but holds no alignment-relevance", and scum means, "not just scummy, just plain scum, it's more than just looks" in essence, being a hard statement.

There's overlap of course. Subjective-scummy overlaps a lot with Scum, anti-town actions almost always look scummy, and whatnot, but none of the terms are synonyms for me.

'genuine'
...Is okay for tonality things, but on the condition of
not
being emotions = town. You can say something is genuine and not genuine, but genuine emotions != town, even though not-genuine emotions = scum.
'rolefishing'
Doesn't, and for as long as I've been on the site (so, 2008-earlier), never has, existed. No actual scum rolefish. Ever. Any accusation against scum rolefishing was them not meaning any fishing. Town might occasionally 'fish, but basically never do so accusations against them are also fairly false. And even if you say this isn't so, I'd like to clarify: explicitly calling for a claim is in no way shape nor form a rolefish. It's demanding a roleclaim, equivalent to throwing 5 tons of TNT into the water to kill every fish.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:09 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 6, Ether wrote:You might enjoy this thread.

I don't think it's fair to say those words are meaningless, even though it's easy for a lazy person to misuse them. And honestly, even though your definition of Occam's Razor tries to frame it as stupid, "not overthinking this game" is a perfectly reasonable and justifiable thing to do.


Thanks for the link!

I'm not saying they're meaningless, but instead that they serve as actually pretty strong rhetorical devices for advancing one's agenda in-game. That said, it gets a bit transparent when they're abused. I think that approaching a game simply can be an excellent way to avoid the pitfalls of overthinking, but I also find it hilarious that rather than developing a defense for that ease-of-play, the term has been used more often than not.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:18 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I'm also going to have to sneakily act like I totally don't fish for roles in some games, mastin :3
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:57 am

Post by Elbirn »

In post 9, Varsoon wrote:
In post 6, Ether wrote:You might enjoy this thread.

I don't think it's fair to say those words are meaningless, even though it's easy for a lazy person to misuse them. And honestly, even though your definition of Occam's Razor tries to frame it as stupid, "not overthinking this game" is a perfectly reasonable and justifiable thing to do.


Thanks for the link!

I'm not saying they're meaningless, but instead that they serve as actually pretty strong rhetorical devices for advancing one's agenda in-game. That said, it gets a bit transparent when they're abused. I think that approaching a game simply can be an excellent way to avoid the pitfalls of overthinking, but I also find it hilarious that rather than developing a defense for that ease-of-play, the term has been used more often than not.


Isn't it a "Scumtell" to use excessive "buzzwords", at least according to one of the jillions of outdated wiki articles from like 1978?
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:35 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

I honestly don't mind the word "scummy" and "scumtell" being mis(ab)used because it can invoke some hilarious reactions.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:16 am

Post by Psyche »

In post 11, Elbirn wrote:
In post 9, Varsoon wrote:
In post 6, Ether wrote:You might enjoy this thread.

I don't think it's fair to say those words are meaningless, even though it's easy for a lazy person to misuse them. And honestly, even though your definition of Occam's Razor tries to frame it as stupid, "not overthinking this game" is a perfectly reasonable and justifiable thing to do.


Thanks for the link!

I'm not saying they're meaningless, but instead that they serve as actually pretty strong rhetorical devices for advancing one's agenda in-game. That said, it gets a bit transparent when they're abused. I think that approaching a game simply can be an excellent way to avoid the pitfalls of overthinking, but I also find it hilarious that rather than developing a defense for that ease-of-play, the term has been used more often than not.


Isn't it a "Scumtell" to use excessive "buzzwords", at least according to one of the jillions of outdated wiki articles from like 1978?


yeah!
not for sure, but yeah!
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:05 pm

Post by kuribo »

WIFOM reminds me of this
Occam's Razor is tossed around by people that don't understand it
IIOA- tossed around by people to make others look scummy when they don't really have a case
Meta- makes me do this:

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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:25 am

Post by Alchemist21 »

IIoA is the one that probably urks me the most. If people are presenting information and showing that they're using it to draw a conclusion, then there is analysis being done. The posts I've seen that were truly IIoA were done by Town, and they did it to have the info in their ISO for analysis later in the game.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:56 am

Post by BROseidon »

The problem with meta is that people are bad at it. It's pretty simple. There are some players who know how to use meta effectively as core to their gameplay, but they're few and far between.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:42 pm

Post by Untrod Tripod »

meta is trash
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:28 pm

Post by T-Bone »

In post 17, Untrod Tripod wrote:meta is trash


Yes.

Also lets add OMGUS to the trash pile. It's invoked as a magical shield against cross voting "I voted you now you can't vote me back cause if you do you're scum hurhurhurhur"
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:05 pm

Post by GuyInFreezer »

Occam's Razor: meh
WIFOM: your wifom is the wifom
IIOA: *already skipped the post that's flagged as one*
Meta: laziest way to state a read
Reaction Test: It ain't one unless you can tell me what kind of reaction you were expecting and why that reaction proves someone's alignment.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:03 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 18, T-Bone wrote:Also lets add OMGUS to the trash pile. It's invoked as a magical shield against cross voting "I voted you now you can't vote me back cause if you do you're scum hurhurhurhur"
Individual cases, yes.

It can be alignment-relevant if given in the form of a TREND, i.e. a player who consistently votes players who attack them. (Circumstances are key, though. Sometimes, all the players attacking you really
are
scum so you're justified. 98% of the time, you're not, though, and players who do so as town are annoying. You therefore have to look each time to see: is it a player who is right and being attacked by scum, a player who is town and wrong in thinking they're being attacked by scum, or a scum player on the defensive? Each are different, and generally are easy to identify, but I'm not sure I can verbalize the general things that make each one noticeable.)
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:03 pm

Post by Brian Skies »

Occam's Razor:
Not a term I use, but I agree with Muffin that usually the simpler explanations are more likely than the convoluted ones. One of the reasons I've been slowly moving away from making elaborate cases.
WIFOM:
A term I abused when I first joined this site. AngryPidgeon pointed out to me that I used it for things I obviously cared about and now I have other ways of discrediting arguments, mainly providing alternative points of view. I think I still use the term occasionally.
IIOA:
I've been in some pretty long games and I've never considered this a scumtell. I just prefer to skip or ignore posts I don't find alignment indicative.

Scummy:
To me, this doesn't always imply that a person is being scumread, but other people seem to think so. To prevent confusion, I prefer to use the word 'weird' as I find it adequately expresses that something bothers me, different than what I would expect, and/or noteworthy.
Genuine:
A word I like to abuse. It's a buzzword that doesn't really bother me because it can help someone pinpoint their concerns and promote discussion. I disagree with Mastin and think that scum can display genuine emotions like frustration.
Gut:
Lazy way for players of any alignment to avoid justifying a read. Even when I admit I have a gut read, I can still explain what it is that makes me lean that way, regardless of how weak the reasoning is. A lot of times I just choose not to share my reasoning, in which case I either just put it down as 'null' or don't mention it at all.
Fluffy:
"I don't need someone to tell me what someone else's playstyle looks like."
Lying:
"There's a difference between lying and just being wrong."

Rolefishing:
"So? The claim/softclaim/breadcrumb is sketchy." May also be "Yes, I agree with you, let's lynch it" or "It's being softclaimed or crumbed for a reason."
Hypocrisy:
"Town are bigger hypocrites than scum are."
Lurking:
"You ignoring me, missing my posts, or burying me with pages upon pages of posts, many of them walls, does not make me a lurker. The same things goes for this other guy you're all trying to lynch."
Defensive:
"We all have pointy sticks. If you poke me, I'll poke you back."
OMGUS:
"His vote on me sucks though."

We Still Have So Much Time:
"Lynch scum. Move on."
Conftown:
"Unless it's an innocent child, mason, or confirmed by a hider, I don't want to hear it."
Obvtown:
"Obviously not if other people think they're scummy. Not all of us are blessed by whatever experiences or skills you think you have regarding this person."
Based On Flavor...:
"Stop. Just. Stop."

In post 8, mastin2 wrote:
Meta:
Is, by 95% of people, done wrong. "X did this in game Y as town, and didn't do it in game Z as scum, therefore is town" = you're doing it horribly, horribly wrong.
"X has a strong tendency to do Y as town and not as scum, as games 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 as town show and games 1, 2, 3, and 4 show as scum." Not great, but better. Adding a disclaimer might help: "So while it's no sure bet that X having done Y makes X town, I find it at least more probable than not." Still not perfect, of course, but it is at least not as horrible.
In general, greater sample size and greater ambiguity and less assurance of accuracy are what makes meta be more effective: the more games you play with them, the better your understanding of them is. The less specific your focus is, the harder it is for the player to have changed. The more you use it as a guideline rather than hardfast rule, the better its usage will be.

Context is key. Circumstances are everything. And on top of that, players change. These three factors must, must, MUST be accounted for in meta analysis, else the meta is worthless.

I share pretty much the same perspective on meta. While I've seen a handful of players use meta effectively and shown that it can be a really effective tool in reading other players, I feel the large majority of players who cite "meta" as a reason for some of their reads have no idea what they're doing and are confusing it with "experience".

Meta:
"I've gone back through several of this player's games and there is a distinct pattern in the way he behaves as town that doesn't appear in his scum games. One of these behaviors is apparent here and I believe it indicates that they're town."
Experience:
"He did this in another game and he was town there. I think he's town here as well."

The part I've bolded is the main reason I choose not to rely on meta. Also, I find it time-consuming and don't want to put in the work or effort.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:05 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

In post 21, Brian Skies wrote:Conftown: "Unless it's an innocent child, mason, or confirmed by a hider, I don't want to hear it."
Obvtown: "Obviously not if other people think they're scummy. Not all of us are blessed by whatever experiences or skills you think you have regarding this person."
Based On Flavor...: "Stop. Just. Stop."

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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:33 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 21, Brian Skies wrote:
Gut:
Still has its uses, but I've found myself generally phasing it out. I'll give a wordy explanation of my feelings, and then summarize it with a, "...but I realize that's basically...well, gut."
Fluffy:
Lacking in content. Talking about the weather in the middle of a game is fluff. Not quite synonymous with active lurking, because active lurking is fluff disguised as content, but I do admit the two have sort-of blended together in my mind despite the difference.
Lying:
Is, 99% of the time, reserved solely for scum. Hint: you're not the 1%, even if you think you are. (Tangent: I'd argue lying's generally bad for scum, too, since the less lies you have to tell as scum, the easier it is to appear pro-town.)
Hypocrisy:
Is closely tied to inconsistency; you can usually pin down an alignment, but it's reliant on circumstances.
Lurking:
I personally divided it into three types: passive lurking, AKA avoiding the thread entirely, is generally alignment-null, but is basically impossible to distinguish from traditional lurking, which is reading the thread but not posting in it (can be town, but is often scum), and then there's active lurking, which is posting "empty" posts disguised to be meant as meaningful posts, and is usually a scumtell.
Defensive:
Is valid as a tell, but not nearly as much as people think it is.
We Still Have So Much Time:
No, we really, really don't. Unless you're quicklynching in less than a week, before everyone's checked in. Then, then you still have so much time and waiting's a valid thing to do. But longer than that, yeah. (It can also be valid if a player is having a REALLY busy week, and there's a task for the game they want to devote time to. If the deadline's far away, the town can wait if it's that important. Which, sometimes, it is.)
Conftown:
Not to be confused with obvtown, but I will use "player is conftown" as shorthand for "practically confirmed town" to convey how a read can go beyond obvtown.
Obvtown:
Actually sorta phasing this term out a bit, in favor of just using a tiered town system, with top-tier being a mixture of conftown and obvtown.
My academy.
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Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
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JerryArr
JerryArr
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Goon
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JerryArr
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Goon
Goon
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:35 pm

Post by JerryArr »

Scumslip
: Here's a randomly selected string of text. Hopefully it's vaguely damning enough to get pressure and/or votes on you! (Note: Actual scumslips are never scumslips, they are gambits by a Jester who is hoping to get lynched).
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