Daytalk for Newbies

[mhsmith0]

Is there a matrix6 design topic? I didn't see it, so apologies if I missed it.

But I kinda think it might make sense to re-design a bit. Notably:

1) The two setups with BP's are pretty mafia-sided based on win rates. What do you think of boosting BP to 2-shot? That way, BP+tracker at least has a chance of confusing the mafia enough to shoot at BP twice (if they think there's a doc).

2) Row 2 is pretty town-sided. What do you think of nerfing the cop to something like 2-shot (but if blocked, it doesn't count as a wasted shot). IMO it's a pretty minor nerf, to the point where in setup B it really shouldn't matter (presumably with 2 cop shots done, cop would out simply to create a PoE anywy), and in setup 2, it'd limit the ability of the board to just go follow the cop in the event of an RB death.

[Accountant]

I like the idea of a vigilante in newbie, let's slap that in somewhere

[Accountant]

X-shot, obviously.

[mhsmith0]

I think 1-shot BP is the most useless of the town power roles. IMO a 1-shot vig would be better than a 1-shot BP. Of course, that makes the games shorter and much swingier, so I guess the question is whether that's a bug or a feature.

[Toomai]

It is true that the purpose of the 1xBP is more to balance the matrix than to actually help the town.

I don't think having a Vigilante of any sort in a newbie game is a good idea though. The game only starts out at 7:2; a mislynch, scum kill, and vig kill on town brings it to 4:2 MyLo for day 2. It knocks out the guarantee that all games will have at least one day where you have flips and it's not XyLo.

[zMuffinMan]

4:2 with a vig technically isn't MyLo, though (unless the vig is the one that dies N1)...

[Zachrulez]

Yeah I would say that newbie games aren't large enough to support a vig.

[RadiantCowbells]

Instead of 1-Shot BP, what about a 1-shot neighbourizer?

[callforjudgement]

That basically becomes a Friendly Neighbour because there's nowhere else the neighbourization could come from. So that'd be quite a boost to town. (Admittedly, if the setup is scumsided at the moment, a boost to town might be what's needed.)

[Plotinus]

I thought about that, because I think newbies can really blossom in neighbourhoods in exciting ways (for example Jae in the game you just played).

but it's a role that can confirm itself as town to one person and it sort of meshes badly with cops, and also a lot of newbies coming from places like epic mafia often expect to be able to find someone they can believe is town and then everyone should whisper their roles to that person and I feel like adding neighbourhoods to newbie games could complicate the issue of them getting used to the "no whispering" aspect of site meta.

So far 75% of the newbie games i've modded have involved someone suggesting that people should talk in private or people actually doing so. I think forcing all of the town discussions to happen in public is useful, alas, because I also really think that neighbourhoods are fun and engaging and that newbies with access to a neighbourhood would be less likely to flake and less likely to get mislynched.

I think if a newbie gets the 1-shot neighbourise, they probably neighbourise their IC and then get buddied (if the IC is scum).

[mhsmith0]

IMO the tracker/BP setup is really scum-sided because the mafia really doesn't lose anything by using a shot at the BP since it eventually goes to MYLO instead of LYLO, which isn't much of a benefit to town. OTOH if it's 2-shot, then at least there's the chance mafia will waste another shot on the BP thinking that the doc is doing random stuff or the like.

I'm not really sure why JK/BP/RB is so scum-sided though. MAYBE making BP into 2-shot would help there too, I'm not really sure tbh.

[Realeo]

I'm not really sure why JK/BP/RB is so scum-sided though.

THIS!

Maybe the reason is BP is passive while JK is blockable.

Here's what I meant. BP will only works if the mafia killed them. If it doesn't get kill, (s)he is useless. I mean, a tracker that receives 4 "no result" is also useless, but unless BP--the tracker can fight.

JK is blockable by RB. In RB/Cop/Doc, at least 1 role is functional while in JK/BP/RB, it is both possible that both role is not functional.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not really sure why JK/BP/RB is so scum-sided though. MAYBE making BP into 2-shot would help there too, I'm not really sure tbh.

BP isn't confirmed town unless roleblocker and jailkeeper are dead/confirmed. BP absorbing a nightkill also doesn't really offer any real benefit to town (all it does is put the game on evens, which isn't overly great).

[mhsmith0]

Agreed. Tho bp absorbing TWO nks would be a big boost to town.

[Realeo]

I sincerely feel BP is too overpowered if made 2 shots?

[Nachomamma8]

The only problem with that is then BP has a pretty strong incentive to claim immediately (and become unkillable confirmed town), and mafia gets pretty heavily punished for fake claiming doctor and getting counter claimed by unkillable mostly-confirmed town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

This topic has come up before and the conclusion then (I don't remember who suggested it; it may've just been me) was that Universal Back-up was the best role to replace 1-shot BP, especially now that it has joined the list of Normal roles.

It doesn't feel that pressing to me, but if you want to push for a change, that would be what I would push for.

[Realeo]

Ah right! UniversalBack-Up sounds genius! Can we have petition for this?

[RadiantCowbells]

The only problem with that is then BP has a pretty strong incentive to claim immediately (and become unkillable confirmed town), and mafia gets pretty heavily punished for fake claiming doctor and getting counter claimed by unkillable mostly-confirmed town.

Don't think this is a bad thing.

[chilledtea]

Not to mention, mafia would know then a possibility of 2-shot BP counterclaiming. So, they would take their risks accordingly.

[Zachrulez]

The only problem with that is then BP has a pretty strong incentive to claim immediately (and become unkillable confirmed town), and mafia gets pretty heavily punished for fake claiming doctor and getting counter claimed by unkillable mostly-confirmed town.

Don't think this is a bad thing.

The inability to nightkill a confirmed town role is a pretty crappy role to make newbies deal with as scum.

[Realeo]

What people of think of this Modified Matrix6?

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Town Vanilla	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Tracker
3	Town Universal Back-Up	Mafia Encryptor	Town Doctor

-----

Change made:
Town Tracker and Town Doctor switches up.
A Mafia Goon becomes Mafia Encryptor, allowing day talk.
Universal Back-Up is passive (not blockable) and instant. If a pr is lynched, the back up becomes the lynched role automatically and can use it during the following night.

-----

Setup-by-Setup discussion:

Row 1

Town Jailkeeper/VT/Goon (stays)

By May 10, the setup result is exactly 50%. If it ain't broken, don't fix it..

Row 2

Mafia Roleblocker/Town Cop/Town Doctor -> Mafia Roleblocker/Town Cop/Town Tracker

The original combo of Cop-Doctor make this setup originally the towniest setup. To compensate this overpowerness, Town Doctor becomes Town Tracker. Some may find this not fair, but the original Column C is Goon/Tracker/Doctor--which is more unfair, tbh.

Row 3

Row 3:BP/Goon/Tracker -> Universal Back Up/Mafia Encryptor/Doctor

Row 3 always finishes in the top 2 scummiest setup, switching up one with Column A once in a while. We'd like to argue that the original setup is weak due to BP's passiveness and Tracker's uncertainty. Doctor and Universal Back Up is going to be a strong combo, so throwing in Mafia Encryptor is a wise decision, imo.

Column A

Jailkeeper/Mafia Roleblocker/BP -> Jailkeeper/Mafia Roleblocker/Universal Back Up.

Column A also always finishes in top 2 scummiest setup with Column A. We'd like to argue that the setup is weak because BP's passiveness.

Column B

VT/Cop/Goon -> VT/Cop/Encryptor

From all change, this one is the only one that I'm most not sure of. Column B is already a somewhat scummy setup and Encryptor probably makes it worse, but is it that bad?

Column C

Goon/Tracker/Doctor (stays)

Column C is already a somewhat scummy, but steady at 45% rate, give or take 2%, so it stays there.

[Realeo]

There is a high chance that the idea above is dumb.

[mhsmith0]

I'm not sure what the effect of cop+tracker would be. I suspect that it gives even more power to the town, because the tracker can see more visits in row 2.

I'd rather just nerf the cop to like 2-shot, which would really only affect the end-game and further limit the cheap and boring "follow the cop" strategy.

[mhsmith0]

I'm also not necessarily opposed to an encryptor (IMO it's a lot more fun to be a wolf w day talk anyway), but I'd slap it on C1 instead of B3. Setups 1 (JK) and C (DT) are relatively pro-town compared to most of the rest, and swapping BP to UB should move 3 and A more towards balance (I think).

I guess the bigger downside to an encryptor is that mafia gets more of a sense of the setup. But I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I think it makes sense for mafia to have relatively more knowledge than town anyway.