Can a mafia game end in a draw?

Dwlee99 · Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:33 am

I was playing a game offsite with many custom roles in it. I was a role that could prime people and ignite them (day or night, didn't matter). In the end I fooled the entire town and it became LyLo (Me, a confirmed town [who was primed], and a neutral) but because I had claimed on D1 I got a modifier that made it so during the entire game it took one less vote to lynch me. The neutral hammered me without realizing it and then the town was ignited. My kill (technically) took place BEFORE a lynch happened (it did every day) but the mod says it ends in a draw. Thoughts?

Dwlee99 · Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:36 am

Here is the day end post:
Suddenly, dwlee remembered his YT channel, the one with 30K subs. It would be his undoing.
With a scream of rage, he placed a redstone torch, activating a hidden redstone path. A TNT went off, killing @Dinodinodude , who as he collapsed revealed dwlee to be the (Creeper IV, the mafia Red Team Bomber).
Tmi drew his sword and charged dwlee, and dwlee drew his and fought back.
The following battle lived in legend.

Tmi punched Dwlee, throwing him to his knees. Dwlee used detonate, throwing Tmi back. Tmi charged again, and the clash of swords rang out. Dwlee threw more TNT and explosions shrouded the battle. And then the smoke cleared. Both of them, @Tmi489 (Pirate I, the New Class) and @dwlee99 (Creeper IV, the Red Team Bomber) lay dead.

JoramvanVugt · Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:37 am

MAFIA WON. tbh your kill took place before every lynch, every time you ignited you ignited during day and the post with your ignite was always before end of day post including that days lynch. i think mafia should win, i also want mafia to win cause i wasnt my fist scum win lel

JoramvanVugt · Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:39 am

In post 1, Dwlee99 wrote:Here is the day end post:
Suddenly, dwlee remembered his YT channel, the one with 30K subs. It would be his undoing.
With a scream of rage, he placed a redstone torch, activating a hidden redstone path. A TNT went off, killing @Dinodinodude , who as he collapsed revealed dwlee to be the (Creeper IV, the mafia Red Team Bomber).
Tmi drew his sword and charged dwlee, and dwlee drew his and fought back.
The following battle lived in legend.

Tmi punched Dwlee, throwing him to his knees. Dwlee used detonate, throwing Tmi back. Tmi charged again, and the clash of swords rang out. Dwlee threw more TNT and explosions shrouded the battle. And then the smoke cleared. Both of them, @Tmi489 (Pirate I, the New Class) and @dwlee99 (Creeper IV, the Red Team Bomber) lay dead.

It says they both died before you, TMI was a BN so thats a mafia win

Dwlee99 · Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:40 am

Yea, my kill took place before the lynch every day so I'm pretty sure we won.

Cheery Dog · Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:51 am

The answer is still yes that a mafia game can end in a draw though. You'll require a multiball for it though, as SK will beat out a mafia in a 1v1, and I think I've seen vigs take it either way.
There may even be setups roles in whatever multiball game to have it work.

Draw's between town and mafia are usually the result of a game being abandoned though, so no true draw happens there.

Dwlee99 · Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:56 am

So who wins? It was multi-ball but the serial killer was already dead.

SilverWolf · Post Post #7 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:41 am

In multiball where there's a WW faction and a Mafia faction and there ends up being one of each and they equal or outnumber the town players, I think both the ww and the Mafia team are considered tied and town loses. I'm not 100% sure but I think that's right.

Dwlee99 · Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:33 am

Yea, but in this specific instance who wins?

Ankamius · Post Post #9 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:14 am

Win conditions > all. If someone's win condition is met in that situation, they win and everyone else loses. If no one's win condition is met, then it's a draw (or played out if there is more than one reasonable outcome).

Dwlee99 · Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:15 am

My win condition was when all threats to the mafia were eliminated, so would the Benign neutral with no win condition be a threat?

Ankamius · Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:24 am

If you can't be lynched or killed in any way, then you win in that case.

Dwlee99 · Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:57 am

The benign neutral could lynch me cause of my modifier but couldn't even win.

SilverWolf · Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:05 am

So you are a hated arsonist and town who could destroy the town?

Anyway, it sounds like the town was ignited due to your lynch. If the rule was that your kills happened first, then town lost that one. Neutral lost as well. Were the Mafia players primed and ignited? If not, then they win. If so, no one wins.

chamber · Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:05 am

right, so the neutral lynched you, he was left alive and couldn't win. A draw was right. The win conditions were probably written poorly, but given how they were written~.

Dwlee99 · Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:11 am

In post 13, SilverWolf wrote:So you are a hated arsonist and town who could destroy the town?

Anyway, it sounds like the town was ignited due to your lynch. If the rule was that your kills happened first, then town lost that one. Neutral lost as well. Were the Mafia players primed and ignited? If not, then they win. If so, no one wins.

I was a mafia arsonist and my igniting can be done at any time (I ignited twice already during others days, had one left)
I had primed the town the night before and ignited him. My ignites always happen right before the lynch for that day and therefore for a split second there was just me and the neutral left (the town was killed because day ended, not cause I got lynched) and I got lynched. The neutral's win con was pretty much for the game to end the night before but it didn't so no one won.

mastin2 · Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:11 am

In post 5, Cheery Dog wrote:Draw's between town and mafia are usually the result of a game being abandoned though, so no true draw happens there.

Natirasha's MtG game ended in a town-scum-scum draw, but that was multiball and there were special mechanics in play that made it basically so that no side could win yet no side could lose.

SilverWolf · Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:19 am

In post 15, Dwlee99 wrote:
In post 13, SilverWolf wrote:So you are a hated arsonist and town who could destroy the town?

Anyway, it sounds like the town was ignited due to your lynch. If the rule was that your kills happened first, then town lost that one. Neutral lost as well. Were the Mafia players primed and ignited? If not, then they win. If so, no one wins.

I was a mafia arsonist and my igniting can be done at any time (I ignited twice already during others days, had one left)
I had primed the town the night before and ignited him. My ignites always happen right before the lynch for that day and therefore for a split second there was just me and the neutral left (the town was killed because day ended, not cause I got lynched) and I got lynched. The neutral's win con was pretty much for the game to end the night before but it didn't so no one won.

Ah, for some reason I thought you were town with the way you worded your first post. OK, Well you were lynched, neutral didn't make his wincon, and town was destroyed in a fire. No matter the order, nobody met their wincon. Keep in mind, you were still lynched. That counts.

Looks like a draw to me.

JoramvanVugt · Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:21 am

rip first scum win :S

chamber · Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:29 am

I want to emphasize that the issue here is that the mod put a role into the game that could wind up in a position where they were alive and couldn't win. Avoid doing that in the future and it makes things like this much less likely.

Dwlee99 · Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:56 am

In post 19, chamber wrote:I want to emphasize that the issue here is that the mod put a role into the game that could wind up in a position where they were alive and couldn't win. Avoid doing that in the future and it makes things like this much less likely.

It was a role that had to have the game end before D7 and it ended on D7.

quadz08 · Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:30 pm

that is commonly known as a bad role, especially if there wasn't an automatic death of that role upon their win condition becoming unfulfillable (and including that clause is arguably a bad thing in and of itself)

implosion · Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:14 pm

To elaborate on why that's a bad thing: imagine that you are the player with that role, and it's past D7. What's your motivation to do anything? You've already lost so nothing you do has consequences from a game perspective, so you basically become a kingmaker who decides who else wins without being able to win yourself. That's no fun for the kingmaker because they can't do anything that matters, and it's no fun for the other players because their fates are in the hands of someone who they have no power over.

Dwlee99 · Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:49 am

So they should of been killed at the start of D7 making it 1 v 1. I had the hated modifier though, but the town never voted for me he self voted (after the neutral hammered me without realizing it) but he might of done different in the 1 v 1. I tried to get power over the neutral as well, though. I primed the town and said if they lynched me they wouldn't win because I thought the game to end on or before D7 for them to win. All-in-all though the mafia outplayed town so much and I scored a mislynch while being confirmed scum from two investigative roles so I'm upset that we didn't win.

kuribo · Post Post #24 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:21 pm

In post 5, Cheery Dog wrote:The answer is still yes that a mafia game can end in a draw though. You'll require a multiball for it though, as SK will beat out a mafia in a 1v1, and I think I've seen vigs take it either way.
There may even be setups roles in whatever multiball game to have it work.

Draw's between town and mafia are usually the result of a game being abandoned though, so no true draw happens there.

Town / Mafia draws also happen when the mod doesn't word the win conditions properly