The Importance of Trust

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

The Importance of Trust

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:18 am

Post by mastin2 »

Let me talk to you about trust.

Now, when I talk about trust on here, I'm not talking about saying, "Trust me, I'm town" when town and not as scum. If done accidentally, that's a towntell. If done intentionally, that's a trust-tell. In either case, it will eventually be broken, be it by using the tell as scum (thus, breaking it), or in the case of a trust-tell, getting banned for it.

When I talk about trust, I'm talking about, "firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of someone or something", with synonyms of confidence, belief, faith, certainty, assurance, conviction, credence, reliance, 'depend on', 'count on', and 'be sure of'.

Now skeptics among you might be wondering...what place does trust have in a game built upon deception and lies? When you're part of the uninformed majority, and you know there's an informed minority in opposition to you, surely, you cannot afford to hold trust in anything, aside from maybe yourself. Right?

...Wrong. Trust is a fundamental part of the game, and every player uses or abuses trust in their game, whether they do so consciously or not. Trust is a critical element in every major town win, because it is town players trusting in one another that allows them to work together and lynch scum. Without that trust in each other being town, the town would never be able to bond together and achieve victory.

Of course, trust is not some unfair superweapon the town holds exclusive rights to: it is fallible. Just because someone believes they are worthy of trust doesn't necessarily mean they are, because quite often, they will be working from a faulty premise. Similarly, because town players do not hold a monopoly on asking for trust, if you place trust in a scum player who asks for it, then you have equally condemned yourself.

Trust can also be easily destroyed or employed by the scum. One side-effect of apathy is that a player no longer caring about the outcome of the game will either trust no-one (rendering them useless) or literally anyone no matter how dubious (rendering them a sheep easily manipulated by scum).

And, if scum manage to create an environment where town players don't trust each other, the result is a long TownvTown fight, in which no matter the outcome, town loses. By definition, TvT fighting is a scenario where a town player does not trust a town player, often mutually.

So that is why trust is necessary in a game. For the town to overcome their paranoia towards every player having a chance to be scum, they must make assumptions about certain players being more reliable, more honest, and more competent than others. In other words, to trust in the abilities of another, and for them to be town.

Players who think that their own decisions are more reliable than that of others may still be questioning this--why would you need to trust in them, when your own skills are as far as you are concerned, reliably superior? Well, let's say you play more by gut than by solid logic.

What are the words most readily available to get others to follow you?

...Exactly. "Just trust me."

Players who insist that logic holds the answer may wonder how trust plays a part in their game, but you must understand that while in theory, there is a perfect logic that will perfectly, logically, undeniably give you the scumteam 100% of the time, humans are by their very nature imperfect, illogical beings.

Your 'perfect logic' may not be as perfect as you think. So you still need trust--in this case, you need to convince others that your perfect logic can be relied on, that your perfect logic is dependable.

But no matter how skilled a scumhunter you are, you cannot realistically expect to be trusted without yourself trusting in others. While your gut may be fairly reliable, even paragons of mafia hunting are not infallible scumhunting gods; you should be considering the words of others to see if maybe you might be wrong.

While logic may generally hold the answer for you, your logic may contain imperfections, and it would be folly to think otherwise, so listen to players that are willing to point out gaps and flaws in said logic.

This process allows the town to work together as a team: giving and receiving trust. And, sure! The process will occasionally let a scum slip into the cracks. Typically there's going to be one scum in an average player's townbloc. Usually, there's going to be at least one player who shouldn't have been protected yet earned that status through trust.

...But the vast majority of the time, by sheer probability, the process of trust is going to improve your odds of correctly identifying and working with town, simply because the majority of players in a game
are
town.

Of course, scum might themselves be wondering where they use trust. Well, for a start, you have to have a fundamental trust that your scumbuddies are actually working to the same wincon that you are. While the town technically holds this same problem, they don't actually know the alignment of players whereas you do.

The second area where you generally use trust whether you're aware of it or not is when it comes to how town players are reading you. Sure, that player townreading you might secretly, say, be a cop with a guilty on you, but generally, you're going to trust them that what they say is what they mean.

Furthermore, when it comes to your choice in nightkills, trust is a fundamental factor that you will generally take into consideration: whenever you decide to spare a player who is townreading you, you are placing fundamental trust in them that their read will not change overnight.

The third and final area scum use trust is in the aforementioned areas above, by subverting town trust and implementing themselves into it, via themselves being the type to say, "Trust me", and working into townblocs.

So all-in-all, trust is the foundation on which games are won or lost.

And on that fact, you'll just have to trust me.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
Antihero
Antihero
al;kdjfal;kj
User avatar
User avatar
Antihero
al;kdjfal;kj
al;kdjfal;kj
Posts: 15872
Joined: March 30, 2009

Post Post #1 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:03 am

Post by Antihero »

i......

don't know if i agree w/ this
The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success.
ika
ika
Survivor
ika
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 11656
Joined: December 13, 2013

Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:21 am

Post by ika »

i dont
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #3 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:38 am

Post by Davsto »

tl;dr
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #4 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:39 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 1, Antihero wrote:i......don't know if i agree w/ this
If you believe in townblocking, then you believe in trust, because by their very nature, townblocs are built on the idea that you're trusting everyone within the townbloc to be town.

...Also, you know as well as I do that you ask players (especially people like me) to trust you all the time with your reads.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
GuyInFreezer
GuyInFreezer
Magical Girl
User avatar
User avatar
GuyInFreezer
Magical Girl
Magical Girl
Posts: 18078
Joined: January 23, 2013
Location: In your wall

Post Post #5 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:44 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

Reducing unnecessary paranoia and trusting others are two totally different things.
Trying to make others trust your read with gut read alone is a terrible idea especially when the game is all about making sides and convincing others to join your side and you shouldn't expect that to go through in the first place.
Show
"I used to think you had this elegant-trolly, minimalist playstyle. Then I realized the playstyle is ~Lazy~
The true enlightenment was realizing that they are the same thing."
~fferyllt

"who the fuck fakeclaims Tracker like that
WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
~Alisae
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #6 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:29 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 5, GuyInFreezer wrote:Trying to make others trust your read with gut read alone is a terrible idea
Where did you get the idea I'm advocating that?

I simply said that players that rely a lot on their own gut readily use trust whether they're aware of it or not.

the game is all about making sides and convincing others to join your side and you shouldn't expect that to go through in the first place.
Thus, trust. In a game of choose a side, what you're really saying is 'choose who to trust'. The more you expect it not to go through, the more you're relying on trust for it to do so.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
N
N
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
N
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8539
Joined: August 2, 2012

Post Post #7 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:55 pm

Post by N »

In post 1, Antihero wrote:i......

don't know if i agree w/ this

me neither, but that's because I didn't read any of it.
GTKAS

Share And Enjoy
(go stick your head in a pig)
User avatar
Performer
Performer
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Performer
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 4142
Joined: August 6, 2015
Location: California

Post Post #8 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:25 pm

Post by Performer »

mast, I think you have an excellent point. I remember seeing metalsonic declare something valiant, like this: "You want to win? Then have some faith. Have faith in me. You do want to win, right?"

Trust, faith, believing in each other. This is why I always like playing as town and why I play town much better than playing any other faction. Thank you for posting this, mast.
I’m an informed Miller who knows there isn’t any Loyal modifiers and there is a total of 4 scum.
-Morality
I'm easily the best person in the game at mechanics. I don't presume to be the best at anything else.
-Jingle
People tried
-RadiantCowbells
User avatar
Espeonage
Espeonage
any
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Espeonage
any
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 11651
Joined: December 17, 2009
Pronoun: any
Location: Existential Dread of my Inner Thoughts

Post Post #9 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:48 pm

Post by Espeonage »

In post 4, mastin2 wrote:
In post 1, Antihero wrote:i......don't know if i agree w/ this
If you believe in townblocking, then you believe in trust, because by their very nature, townblocs are built on the idea that you're trusting everyone within the townbloc to be town.


That is categorically untrue. It is generally important to have at least one scum in a bloc to force their partners in to awkward positions, which helps with relational tells down the line.
Don't @ me.
A troll account
A troll account
Watcher
A troll account
Watcher
Watcher
Posts: 0
Joined: October 1, 2015

Post Post #10 (ISO) » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:09 pm

Post by A troll account »

In post 7, N wrote:
In post 1, Antihero wrote:i......

don't know if i agree w/ this

me neither, but that's because I didn't read any of it.
Does anyone?
User avatar
kuribo
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
User avatar
User avatar
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
Fire and Brimstone
Posts: 15467
Joined: August 21, 2007
Pronoun: he/him
Location: the beach, probably
Contact:

Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 am

Post by kuribo »

I don't believe in townbloc'ing, because I don't trust anyone who isn't mod-confirmed same-alignment to me. That means only the dead, another hydra-head, or a mason. Almost every townbloc I've seen has either been 1- Infiltrated by scum due to one of the bloc-leaders trusting their own reads too much, or 2- Brought about by scum trying to buddy multiple people.
Join me on my quest to play every NES game! Some of them are awful.

Kuribo's read is foolproof: one night he was high on NyQuil, and he's ancestors reveiled Aureal's alignment to him. - Dessew
User avatar
kuribo
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
User avatar
User avatar
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
Fire and Brimstone
Posts: 15467
Joined: August 21, 2007
Pronoun: he/him
Location: the beach, probably
Contact:

Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:09 am

Post by kuribo »

In post 9, Espeonage wrote:
In post 4, mastin2 wrote:
In post 1, Antihero wrote:i......don't know if i agree w/ this
If you believe in townblocking, then you believe in trust, because by their very nature, townblocs are built on the idea that you're trusting everyone within the townbloc to be town.


That is categorically untrue. It is generally important to have at least one scum in a bloc to force their partners in to awkward positions, which helps with relational tells down the line.


Maybe? But most townbloc'd players don't know when it's time to drop the hammer on the bloc. They tend to just keep going with POE until it's too late.
Join me on my quest to play every NES game! Some of them are awful.

Kuribo's read is foolproof: one night he was high on NyQuil, and he's ancestors reveiled Aureal's alignment to him. - Dessew
User avatar
Espeonage
Espeonage
any
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Espeonage
any
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 11651
Joined: December 17, 2009
Pronoun: any
Location: Existential Dread of my Inner Thoughts

Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:49 am

Post by Espeonage »

That's the fault of the players, not the method.
Don't @ me.
User avatar
kuribo
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
User avatar
User avatar
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
Fire and Brimstone
Posts: 15467
Joined: August 21, 2007
Pronoun: he/him
Location: the beach, probably
Contact:

Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:38 am

Post by kuribo »

That's true, but if I'm one of the poor schmucks who's town and also not in the townbloc, all I can do is watch helplessly while they drive town over the cliff


It not being the method's fault is little compensation, which is why I consider it to be a poor method.
Join me on my quest to play every NES game! Some of them are awful.

Kuribo's read is foolproof: one night he was high on NyQuil, and he's ancestors reveiled Aureal's alignment to him. - Dessew
User avatar
pirate mollie
pirate mollie
thingmaker
User avatar
User avatar
pirate mollie
thingmaker
thingmaker
Posts: 18584
Joined: September 5, 2012

Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:48 am

Post by pirate mollie »

In post 11, kuribo wrote:I don't believe in townbloc'ing, because I don't trust anyone who isn't mod-confirmed same-alignment to me. That means only the dead, another hydra-head, or a mason. Almost every townbloc I've seen has either been 1- Infiltrated by scum due to one of the bloc-leaders trusting their own reads too much, or 2- Brought about by scum trying to buddy multiple people.


kuribo i disagree!!! :(

even if you have 1 scum in them its still good cos you can get them to try to bus their scummate. I swear to freaking god sometimes the only way to lynch scum is to get scum to help you, town seems so reluctant to do it.
whew!
User avatar
GuyInFreezer
GuyInFreezer
Magical Girl
User avatar
User avatar
GuyInFreezer
Magical Girl
Magical Girl
Posts: 18078
Joined: January 23, 2013
Location: In your wall

Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:08 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

In post 6, mastin2 wrote:
In post 5, GuyInFreezer wrote:Trying to make others trust your read with gut read alone is a terrible idea
Where did you get the idea I'm advocating that?

I simply said that players that rely a lot on their own gut readily use trust whether they're aware of it or not.

the game is all about making sides and convincing others to join your side and you shouldn't expect that to go through in the first place.
Thus, trust. In a game of choose a side, what you're really saying is 'choose who to trust'. The more you expect it not to go through, the more you're relying on trust for it to do so.

You shouldn't expect it not to go through not because the lack of trust but because it's a bad method.

Disagreeing with one's good stance happens not because of the lack of trust but rather because of the lack of persuasion/skillful communication/proper analysis/bias.

If a player A refuses to, say, listen to whatever a player B says because of "B fooled me before," then it's A's fault for having a unnecessary amount of paranoia shielding A from analyzing without bias, not A/B's fault for not being able to form a trust.

As I said earlier, dropping unnecessary paranoia and trusting are two different things.

Dropping unnecessary paranoia opens up a chance for player to analyze other player's posts with less bias. Trusting in other hand, while implied correctly, can make a great synergy for scum to break it apart, can have a huge drawback if not used correctly and cause, get ready, more unnecessary paranoia. Basically, using a trust in mafia game is high risk/high reward. In other words, it's a
gambit
.

"Hey but you can break it if the situation needs it."
Then what's the difference between this "trust" and "putting aside differences and working together?"

So basically, you shouldn't lightly trust people in mafia games. And this is coming from me. (Ironic right)
Show
"I used to think you had this elegant-trolly, minimalist playstyle. Then I realized the playstyle is ~Lazy~
The true enlightenment was realizing that they are the same thing."
~fferyllt

"who the fuck fakeclaims Tracker like that
WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
~Alisae
User avatar
fferyllt
fferyllt
Titan of Trajectory
User avatar
User avatar
fferyllt
Titan of Trajectory
Titan of Trajectory
Posts: 20495
Joined: December 28, 2012
Location: Left Coast

Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:49 am

Post by fferyllt »

"Mafia is a game of paranoia and trust. Sometimes the paranoia is misguided. Sometimes the trust is misplaced"

~ fferyllt, on too many occasions to count.
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.

Idic
User avatar
kuribo
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
User avatar
User avatar
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
Fire and Brimstone
Posts: 15467
Joined: August 21, 2007
Pronoun: he/him
Location: the beach, probably
Contact:

Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:59 am

Post by kuribo »

In post 17, fferyllt wrote:"Mafia is a game of paranoia and trust. Sometimes the paranoia is misguided. Sometimes the trust is misplaced"

~ fferyllt, on too many occasions to count.



That's way more elegant than my stance on trust:

"kill them all and let Mod sort them out"
Join me on my quest to play every NES game! Some of them are awful.

Kuribo's read is foolproof: one night he was high on NyQuil, and he's ancestors reveiled Aureal's alignment to him. - Dessew
User avatar
Plotinus
Plotinus
Kitten Caboodle
User avatar
User avatar
Plotinus
Kitten Caboodle
Kitten Caboodle
Posts: 7611
Joined: March 13, 2015
Location: UTC+1
Contact:

Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:06 am

Post by Plotinus »

ITT kuribo is crumbing SK
The failure mode of clever is asshole.

Modding checklists | Sequencer is in Game 5 | Space II is in Day 4
User avatar
kuribo
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
User avatar
User avatar
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
Fire and Brimstone
Posts: 15467
Joined: August 21, 2007
Pronoun: he/him
Location: the beach, probably
Contact:

Post Post #20 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:18 am

Post by kuribo »

I wish. Eight years and I was never once an SK :(
Join me on my quest to play every NES game! Some of them are awful.

Kuribo's read is foolproof: one night he was high on NyQuil, and he's ancestors reveiled Aureal's alignment to him. - Dessew
User avatar
Plotinus
Plotinus
Kitten Caboodle
User avatar
User avatar
Plotinus
Kitten Caboodle
Kitten Caboodle
Posts: 7611
Joined: March 13, 2015
Location: UTC+1
Contact:

Post Post #21 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:48 am

Post by Plotinus »

I was something like an SK once but I only had a 1-shot of my kill (it was a micro) and I rolecopped toxic goo on night 1 so I knew I was going to die end of day 2 so I fakeclaimed an inno on my friend because I wanted her to win if I couldn't (she was actually town but I didn't know that) and then I lynched the toxic goo who flipped mafia.

I was a very shortlived SK. It was sad.
The failure mode of clever is asshole.

Modding checklists | Sequencer is in Game 5 | Space II is in Day 4
User avatar
Performer
Performer
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Performer
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 4142
Joined: August 6, 2015
Location: California

Post Post #22 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:08 am

Post by Performer »

In post 20, kuribo wrote:I wish. Eight years and I was never once an SK :(

Lol
I’m an informed Miller who knows there isn’t any Loyal modifiers and there is a total of 4 scum.
-Morality
I'm easily the best person in the game at mechanics. I don't presume to be the best at anything else.
-Jingle
People tried
-RadiantCowbells
User avatar
Antihero
Antihero
al;kdjfal;kj
User avatar
User avatar
Antihero
al;kdjfal;kj
al;kdjfal;kj
Posts: 15872
Joined: March 30, 2009

Post Post #23 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:08 pm

Post by Antihero »

ok... mastin i THINK i know what you're talking about

but

In post 8, Performer wrote:mast, I think you have an excellent point. I remember seeing metalsonic declare something valiant, like this: "You want to win? Then have some faith. Have faith in me. You do want to win, right?"

this is the kind of "trust" i go ehhhhhhhhhh at. this kind of "trust" usually drags in an element of ego. and that's a bad, bad thing b/c it usually keeps ppl from re-evaluating their biases and assumptions at points they need to the most.
The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success.
User avatar
Performer
Performer
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Performer
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 4142
Joined: August 6, 2015
Location: California

Post Post #24 (ISO) » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:17 pm

Post by Performer »

In post 23, Antihero wrote:ok... mastin i THINK i know what you're talking about

but

In post 8, Performer wrote:mast, I think you have an excellent point. I remember seeing metalsonic declare something valiant, like this: "You want to win? Then have some faith. Have faith in me. You do want to win, right?"

this is the kind of "trust" i go ehhhhhhhhhh at. this kind of "trust" usually drags in an element of ego. and that's a bad, bad thing b/c it usually keeps ppl from re-evaluating their biases and assumptions at points they need to the most.



I know what you mean. The way I see it, it's highly context specific. Trusting/having faith in someone, this must be taken with a grain of salt in each case.
I’m an informed Miller who knows there isn’t any Loyal modifiers and there is a total of 4 scum.
-Morality
I'm easily the best person in the game at mechanics. I don't presume to be the best at anything else.
-Jingle
People tried
-RadiantCowbells
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”