stop fakeclaiming as town!: the case for lynch all liars

[Jake The Wolfie]

You also have to take the gamestate into account, of course but If I say tracked player X to player Y who ate the previous night’s NK and I’m the next and I never reveal my result, I’d essentially be gamethrowing hiding important information from town. As long as you are 100% honest about the specific nature of your “gulity”, then it’s up to town to make that ultimate judgment call.

How would it be any different with a false "guilty"? All that would really change is that you have nothing to back you up, but the town would not know this, as there is no difference between a false and true "guilty".

[Jake The Wolfie]

Can you explain where in my post that I do this? I don't think it's apparent in any of my arguments, much less the one that you quoted.

It's true that nobody has to follow through on someone claiming a guilty. That doesn't change anything I said there.

culture, a standard, site meta, an unspoken agreement.

The assumption you were making is that people would always follow the culture, when in reality no one is bound by a standard, instead free to follow site meta or forgo with the unspoken agreement entirely.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Well yes, that’s why a miller unless they are extremely confident that they will never be cop checked ought to claim.

A miller claim makes them more suspicious, no? That would seem to hinder your objective, not help it.

There’s different schools of thought about that. You need to asses the gamestate/your play etc. as best you can before you claim. If you think you have a decent chance of being cop checked, maybe a good idea but especially in a mass claim. I got yelled at after a game for not doing that eventhough I was never checked, so it’s a gamble. It also heavily depends on the setup as well.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Well yes, that’s why a miller unless they are extremely confident that they will never be cop checked ought to claim.

A miller claim makes them more suspicious, no? That would seem to hinder your objective, not help it.

There’s different schools of thought about that. You need to asses the gamestate/your play etc. as best you can before you claim. If you think you have a decent chance of being cop checked, maybe a good idea but especially in a mass claim. I got yelled at after a game for not doing that eventhough I was never checked, so it’s a gamble. It also heavily depends on the setup as well.

But there is still inherent risk in claiming to be a miller, even if you properly assess the gamestate/your play etc. as you can be wrong, or mistaken, or ignorant, or all three at once.

[northsidegal]

Can you explain where in my post that I do this? I don't think it's apparent in any of my arguments, much less the one that you quoted.

It's true that nobody has to follow through on someone claiming a guilty. That doesn't change anything I said there.

culture, a standard, site meta, an unspoken agreement.

The assumption you were making is that people would always follow the culture, when in reality no one is bound by a standard, instead free to follow site meta or forgo with the unspoken agreement entirely.

So when I said that I was responding to the question "How is faking a guilty being an asshole?", explaining

why

(in my view) people get angry when you fake a guilty. I wasn't saying that people always follow this culture or that they

have to

follow this culture, and—at least in that section—I wasn't even saying that they

should

follow that unspoken agreement. I was just explaining why they get mad when you

don't

follow it.

It's true that nobody is

bounded

by unspoken agreements or by site culture, but that has nothing to do with whether or not people will get angry at you if you go against it.

[Jake The Wolfie]

It's true that nobody is bounded by unspoken agreements or by site culture, but that has nothing to do with whether or not people will get angry at you if you go against it.

If no one is bounded to it, then when you break it, the only people they should be angry at is themselves for not making the unspoken guidelines into something players are bound to.

[Ythan]

No.

[Ramcius]

It's true that nobody is bounded by unspoken agreements or by site culture, but that has nothing to do with whether or not people will get angry at you if you go against it.

If no one is bounded to it, then when you break it, the only people they should be angry at is themselves for not making the unspoken guidelines into something players are bound to.

Who should I ask to get my permission to rewrite site rules and outlaw fakeclaiming?

[Jake The Wolfie]

It's true that nobody is bounded by unspoken agreements or by site culture, but that has nothing to do with whether or not people will get angry at you if you go against it.

If no one is bounded to it, then when you break it, the only people they should be angry at is themselves for not making the unspoken guidelines into something players are bound to.

Who should I ask to get my permission to rewrite site rules and outlaw fakeclaiming?

The men, the miths, the legends, or the admins

[Ramcius]

It's true that nobody is bounded by unspoken agreements or by site culture, but that has nothing to do with whether or not people will get angry at you if you go against it.

If no one is bounded to it, then when you break it, the only people they should be angry at is themselves for not making the unspoken guidelines into something players are bound to.

Who should I ask to get my permission to rewrite site rules and outlaw fakeclaiming?

The men, the miths, the legends, or the admins

I guess you know them better, so can you get those permissions for me? Cause they said "No!", when I asked. I mean, you speak like it's really easy to get rules changed and it's our fault for not doing it

[Gamma Emerald]

You do realize that by outlawing lying as town you make it impossible for scum to lie too?

[Gamma Emerald]

Like Ram you really seem to have your head up your ass here, I have to say.

[Ythan]

Ram is speaking hypothetically in criticism of Jake's argument, I believe, and rightly so if that's the case.

[Ramcius]

Like Ram you really seem to have your head up your ass here, I have to say.

I mean, simply idea of actually outlawing fakeclaiming is ridiculous, that should be hint that I wasn't being serious. But neither was Jake serious, when he suggested that we should blame ourselves instead of being angry on people, who are borderline gamethrowing

[Ythan]

I'm not actually convinced Jake isn't serious.

[Ramcius]

I'm not actually convinced Jake isn't serious.

He might be serious about fakeclaiming in general, but he isn't serious about changing rules to outlaw town fakeclaiming

[Nero Cain]

if lying as town were banned we'd be telling players how to play well and we can't have that.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Why is lying as town, in general, a bad idea?

[zMuffinMan]

maybe because your win con literally involves catching people who are lying?

[Jake The Wolfie]

maybe because your win con literally involves catching people who are lying?

People lie for an assortment of reasons, as any alignment.

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think that's true (maybe for some people it is) but even if it were true, you asked why it's

generally

a bad idea and i told you

[Gamma Emerald]

Some town lie. Some scum don’t lie. I mean, mastina is on record as having never lied about her role as scum (at least in a way that matters I think), so that should tell you how powerful a properly expressed truth can be. So why can’t a properly timed lie do the same?

[Jake The Wolfie]

i don't think that's true (maybe for some people it is) but even if it were true, you asked why it's

generally

a bad idea and i told you

I simply stated the fact that people lie for an assortment of reasons, which means that it could not be a major part of your winning condition. Even if catching liars was a part of your winning condition, lying can be a method to reach that point.

[zMuffinMan]

yeah and you could also read tea leaves to determine the scum team, doesn't make it a good idea

[Jake The Wolfie]

yeah and you could also read tea leaves to determine the scum team, doesn't make it a good idea

I'm not defending the stance that lying is a good tactic, I'm attacking the stance that it's a bad one.