Is multi-ball actually Mafia?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I have seen some people argue that games with just one scum member is not Mafia. I agree with the reasoning. (1) Mafia is about an uninformed majority vs. an informed minority. A single scum member is not really a proper minority. (2) Mafia is about finding associations between scum. This is impossible with just one scum member. You do not have to worry about defending your scum buddy or bussing them for town credits. It is trivial to play a game like that. Just lynch everyone but yourself.

Mafia, on the other hand, is tough as town. Sometimes it seems that we are just wandering in the dark, not being able to do better than chance. However, with human players, it is possible to do better than chance. As scum, it can be even more stressful, although this is mainly psychological.

Now consider a multi-ball game consisting of multiple scum factions. We assume that the majority is still uninformed. The minority now is only partly informed (i.e., the scum identities are distributed knowledge). Furthermore, the win conditions of the two scum factions are opposed to each other, making it an uninformed majority vs. a partly informed minority vs. another partly informed minority. This is fundamentally different from classical Mafia. It also becomes harder to identify scum, since scum now have to be actively scumhunting too. Associations have not entirely dissappeared, but they are even harder to trace.

So do you think that multi-ball is Mafia, given how different it is?

[zMuffinMan]

it is funny that a game with one scum member would not be considered a game of mafia yet people are perfectly fine with the concept of a serial killer in games. if there exists such a thing as "SK hunting", then surely a game with one mafia is also fine

multiball (and serial killer games) have several fundamental problems, among which being that scum actually will be scum hunting genuinely (which is kind of a stupid concept), the games are almost always going to be swingy and the outcome of games rarely depends on the skill of one faction as opposed to how lucky they get with the actions of the other factions combined (this can happen in normal mafia games, too, but it's basically a given in a multiball game)

[chamber]

Aren't the scum always partially informed? Or do games with town power roles also not count as mafia?

[BROseidon]

it is funny that a game with one scum member would not be considered a game of mafia yet people are perfectly fine with the concept of a serial killer in games. if there exists such a thing as "SK hunting", then surely a game with one mafia is also fine

multiball (and serial killer games) have several fundamental problems, among which being that scum actually will be scum hunting genuinely (which is kind of a stupid concept), the games are almost always going to be swingy and the outcome of games rarely depends on the skill of one faction as opposed to how lucky they get with the actions of the other factions combined (this can happen in normal mafia games, too, but it's basically a given in a multiball game)

#goodposting

[HERRMMMMM]

Aren't the scum always partially informed? Or do games with town power roles also not count as mafia?

I side here, I think. Multiball is decidedly *different* than traditional mafia but ultimately is still mafia. There are still relational tells, still connections that can be made. I think multiball is much better than Serial killer, actually. I do think it should be openly multiball, though.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Aren't the scum always partially informed? Or do games with town power roles also not count as mafia?

You are right that not knowing every PR of each townie is in a way partially "informed", too. In my view, however, informed refers to knowing the alignment of each player. This makes sense if you put it in the context of "an uninformed majority vs. an informed minority", which suggests that it is about alignment.

[AlwaysInnocent]

it is funny that a game with one scum member would not be considered a game of mafia yet people are perfectly fine with the concept of a serial killer in games. if there exists such a thing as "SK hunting", then surely a game with one mafia is also fine

I agree with you here. I am not a fan of the Serial Killer either. However, I am not necessarily opposed to playing a game with a Serial Killer (or multi-ball). I just prefer the classic "uninformed majority vs. informed minority" Mafia game.

multiball (and serial killer games) have several fundamental problems, among which being that scum actually will be scum hunting genuinely (which is kind of a stupid concept), the games are almost always going to be swingy and the outcome of games rarely depends on the skill of one faction as opposed to how lucky they get with the actions of the other factions combined (this can happen in normal mafia games, too, but it's basically a given in a multiball game)

Good point.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Aren't the scum always partially informed? Or do games with town power roles also not count as mafia?

I side here, I think. Multiball is decidedly *different* than traditional mafia but ultimately is still mafia. There are still relational tells, still connections that can be made. I think multiball is much better than Serial killer, actually. I do think it should be openly multiball, though.

Openly multi-ball? You mean an open setup? I always prefer open setups over closed setups.

[HERRMMMMM]

openly multiball meaning it is disclosed at start of game that there are two + scum teams

that makes it okay IMO. Also if it is disclosed that there is a serial killer, for example. Hidden factions are where it becomes less-mafia-y. If it is open, mafia still knows more than town, still has relationships, can still be found.

[AlwaysInnocent]

openly multiball meaning it is disclosed at start of game that there are two + scum teams

that makes it okay IMO. Also if it is disclosed that there is a serial killer, for example. Hidden factions are where it becomes less-mafia-y

Closed setups in general are questionable IMO. I wouldn't go beyond a known distribution of role distributions (e.g., Matrix6, which I really like).

I only join closed games on this site, because I know they are reviewed by mods on balance issues. This makes them... somewhat acceptable. But the problem is that it relies on meta-thinking, otherwise it is not possible to reason about the game at all.

[Suzune]

Where I am from we play many games that only have one person pit against the majority. We do not consider these games mafia but mini games or strategy games. For example, we play The Death Note Game which pits Kira against both the task force and the innocent people seeking a lynch. Likewise we play loves and liars which pits one chosen against a game of lovers. These are less mafia because they are usually note closed games and pm communication is allowed so manipulation is the skill rather then the ability to read posts.

However, on the subject of multi-ball, I find as long as they have teams that work together for one goal that they are considered mafia games.

[Firebringer]

I have seen some people argue that games with just one scum member is not Mafia. I agree with the reasoning. (1) Mafia is about an uninformed majority vs. an informed minority. A single scum member is not really a proper minority. (2) Mafia is about finding associations between scum. This is impossible with just one scum member. You do not have to worry about defending your scum buddy or bussing them for town credits. It is trivial to play a game like that. Just lynch everyone but yourself.

Mafia, on the other hand, is tough as town. Sometimes it seems that we are just wandering in the dark, not being able to do better than chance. However, with human players, it is possible to do better than chance. As scum, it can be even more stressful, although this is mainly psychological.

Now consider a multi-ball game consisting of multiple scum factions. We assume that the majority is still uninformed. The minority now is only partly informed (i.e., the scum identities are distributed knowledge). Furthermore, the win conditions of the two scum factions are opposed to each other, making it an uninformed majority vs. a partly informed minority vs. another partly informed minority. This is fundamentally different from classical Mafia. It also becomes harder to identify scum, since scum now have to be actively scumhunting too. Associations have not entirely dissappeared, but they are even harder to trace.

So do you think that multi-ball is Mafia, given how different it is?

A lot to go over but if you want to skip my wall.

Yes, multiball is still Mafia.

What is mafia? Its players with conflicting win conditions trying to accomplish their win conditions through lies and uncovering the truth.

At least thats how I define it, which is a very broad look at it.

So 1 player scum team? Still mafia.
If you know your goal is to just Survive and eliminate town, you are still know you are not aligned with town.

Your first claim: That 1 is not a true minority.
1 is exactly a complete minority.

Second claim: Players often find scum not even through associations, theres different ways to hunt scum. That is just one way. One is through reading tone/motivations and trying to see the intentions behind players actions. Is someone fake scum hunting? This is something all scum have to fake.

Then when you consider multiball the game seems more complicated but it actually isn't that much more complicated. If you think about it, both teams are anti town, if you are not taking 'associations' to the highest standards you can still find the intentions to undermine towns efforts.

Also when scum are scumhunting in multiball, they are looking for specific scum. They aren't looking for allies. So you can still see associations when you go back on players. Also scum tend not to share all their thoughts with the town, so even if they think they found the whole other scum team, they won't share these thoughts, or at least unlikely.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What is mafia? Its players with conflicting win conditions trying to accomplish their win conditions through lies and uncovering the truth.

At least thats how I define it, which is a very broad look at it.

Too broad, I think. If you generalized lies and uncovering the truth just a bit further to deception in general, then even Poker would be a game of Mafia by your definition. Every competitive game has players with conflicting win conditions by definition. Furthermore, most strategic games include an element of deception.

So 1 player scum team? Still mafia.
If you know your goal is to just Survive and eliminate town, you are still know you are not aligned with town.

Your first claim: That 1 is not a true minority.
1 is exactly a complete minority.

Second claim: Players often find scum not even through associations, theres different ways to hunt scum. That is just one way. One is through reading tone/motivations and trying to see the intentions behind players actions. Is someone fake scum hunting? This is something all scum have to fake.

Then when you consider multiball the game seems more complicated but it actually isn't that much more complicated. If you think about it, both teams are anti town, if you are not taking 'associations' to the highest standards you can still find the intentions to undermine towns efforts.

Also when scum are scumhunting in multiball, they are looking for specific scum. They aren't looking for allies. So you can still see associations when you go back on players. Also scum tend not to share all their thoughts with the town, so even if they think they found the whole other scum team, they won't share these thoughts, or at least unlikely.

I guess the first and second point should actually be one point, since they depend on each other. By a

proper

minority, I mean a minority with at least two players, a minority that can properly be called a group. This is necessary in order to enforce associations, since the association of one player with themselves is trivial (every player will tell you that they are town, so only associations with other players are meaningful).

I think the best argument against multi-ball is probably zMuffinMan's balance argument.

[Cheetory6]

Getting crosskilled as mafia in multiball is one of the least fun things.
I dislike multiball primarily because of that dynamic.
"Oh man should I act less town because I might get killed for it?" is a thought that shouldn't have to enter into scum's mind IMO.

[Ythan]

Yes.

[Plotinus]

Getting crosskilled as mafia in multiball is one of the least fun things.
I dislike multiball primarily because of that dynamic.
"Oh man should I act less town because I might get killed for it?" is a thought that shouldn't have to enter into scum's mind IMO.

It has to cross your mind anyway. "I should act less town or at least cultivate some paranoia of me or I'm going to have to explain why i'm still alive in LYLO" is a thought that crosses my mind every scumgame I play.

[Firebringer]

Too broad, I think. If you generalized lies and uncovering the truth just a bit further to deception in general, then even Poker would be a game of Mafia by your definition. Every competitive game has players with conflicting win conditions by definition. Furthermore, most strategic games include an element of deception.

Actually Poker wouldn't qualify, you need different win conditions. Poker everyone is a survivor essentially. Their is no players having same condition against one player with a different condition. Everyone plays for themselves.

[Firebringer]

I guess the first and second point should actually be one point, since they depend on each other. By a proper minority, I mean a minority with at least two players, a minority that can properly be called a group. This is necessary in order to enforce associations, since the association of one player with themselves is trivial (every player will tell you that they are town, so only associations with other players are meaningful).

I think the best argument against multi-ball is probably zMuffinMan's balance argument.

I already pointed out that associations, which can be good for scumhunting. Are not the only methods for doing so.

[Firebringer]

Getting crosskilled as mafia in multiball is one of the least fun things.
I dislike multiball primarily because of that dynamic.
"Oh man should I act less town because I might get killed for it?" is a thought that shouldn't have to enter into scum's mind IMO.

I got roleblocked by town (when I was scum and last left of my team) by a player because "looked too town"

Sometimes game is decided by night actions, and thats part of the game.

[Zachrulez]

I don't think the argument is whether or not it's mafia, but more whether or not it's 'good' mafia.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Too broad, I think. If you generalized lies and uncovering the truth just a bit further to deception in general, then even Poker would be a game of Mafia by your definition. Every competitive game has players with conflicting win conditions by definition. Furthermore, most strategic games include an element of deception.

Actually Poker wouldn't qualify, you need different win conditions. Poker everyone is a survivor essentially. Their is no players having same condition against one player with a different condition. Everyone plays for themselves.

Ah, you mean asymmetrical win conditions. In that case, you are right. Poker does not qualify. But it is still too broad to call any game with asymmetrical win conditions and deception a game of Mafia.

I guess the first and second point should actually be one point, since they depend on each other. By a proper minority, I mean a minority with at least two players, a minority that can properly be called a group. This is necessary in order to enforce associations, since the association of one player with themselves is trivial (every player will tell you that they are town, so only associations with other players are meaningful).

I think the best argument against multi-ball is probably zMuffinMan's balance argument.

I already pointed out that associations, which can be good for scumhunting. Are not the only methods for doing so.

It is not the only method for scumhunting, but IMO the most reliable one. This is probably explained by the fact that modeling associations between players is theoretically not that difficult. However, psychological analysis is almost impossible to model.

[pieguyn]

i don't have a problem with multiball if it's publicly announced (even though i suck at it). scum will be scum hunting genuinely but it's not impossible to read people in other ways; in my eyes, it's impossible to 100% replicate your town game accurately even as multi-scum, so there will still generally be indications of someone being scum, they're just a lot harder to spot than scumhunting/not scumhunting and you have to read into the game in a lot more depth than you would otherwise in order to get even somewhat accurate reads. if it's not announced, though, you essentially get entirely blindsided by it until it's too late to do anything more often than not.

i agree with all the points about avoiding cross kills as scum/town usually being fucked if no cross kills happen, though, and i think it's difficult to make a multiball setup that's well-balanced. in my eyes, announcing multiball pregame falls under the same principle as announcing bastardry pregame. you know what you're getting into and can plan accordingly.

bork's FF7 was what i would call a good multiball setup.

[Firebringer]

I don't think the argument is whether or not it's mafia, but more whether or not it's 'good' mafia.

So I don't get the purpose of this then, if we take out the question of it being Mafia, is the goal of this to make it into its own classification?

Make it required disclosed? Non-normal?

Bastard possibly?

Even if we all agreed its bad, how many multiball games are run on this site? I think I have played like maybe 4 in all my 50+ completed games.

So is it even a concern?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't think the argument is whether or not it's mafia, but more whether or not it's 'good' mafia.

So I don't get the purpose of this then, if we take out the question of it being Mafia, is the goal of this to make it into its own classification?

Make it required disclosed? Non-normal?

Bastard possibly?

Even if we all agreed its bad, how many multiball games are run on this site? I think I have played like maybe 4 in all my 50+ completed games.

So is it even a concern?

Well, even if it is not a real concern, then it is still interesting to discuss it from a theoretical perspective.

[Firebringer]

I mean at its worst its not a normal game of mafia.

At its best its a more complex game of mafia since you have to look for two different types of associations among players instead of one. Add in that scum could be scumhunting for other team making them appear more townie potentially.

I still don't see how that is not mafia.

I think a lot of people think Cult games are not mafia either, which I like personally and think just need town to work harder on actually figuring out players shifts from day to day. Too bad its considered bastard and only seen 1 cult game.