Closed Setups Are Horrible

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Closed Setups Are Horrible

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:10 am

Post by Firebringer »

Discuss.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:20 am

Post by Psyche »

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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:21 am

Post by Majiffy »

Opens quickly turn into formulaic cc fests or follow the pr.
Semiopens usually dissolve into useless "ok what setup are we in" by day 2 and don't stop until d4 or d5.

I'll stick to my closed setups, thanks.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:37 am

Post by Kagami »

There are fun ways of making open setups that don't have those problems, but they have to made Themes anyway to avoid the restrictions on opens, so may as well just design closed games.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:51 am

Post by AlwaysInnocent »

I tend to agree (although horrible might be offensive to well-intentioned mods that do closed setups). In my view every game should be open. The possible role distributions should be known to all players (so Matrix6 is also OK). This is necessary for meaningful game play that does not rely on highly subjective meta-thinking.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:06 am

Post by Majiffy »

You won't ever escape meta unless every player plays with alts every game. Just accept it.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:13 am

Post by AlwaysInnocent »

In post 5, Majiffy wrote:You won't ever escape meta unless every player plays with alts every game. Just accept it.
Since we cannot escape the fact that we form opinions of players based on earlier encounters? Sure (even though I try to avoid it, because it is still unreliable). But why make games even more dependent on that sort of thinking just because you cannot escape the fact that it always exists on some level?
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:16 am

Post by Majiffy »

I don't think it follows that closed setups make it more dependent on meta. If anything I think it makes it more dependent on meta in opens. I'll elaborate when I'm home
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:16 am

Post by Cheetory6 »

This is probably an extension of your reaction to Mana mini theme.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:30 am

Post by Antihero »

In post 4, AlwaysInnocent wrote:highly subjective meta-thinking

that's... like...

the whole game.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:34 am

Post by AlwaysInnocent »

In post 9, Antihero wrote:
In post 4, AlwaysInnocent wrote:highly subjective meta-thinking

that's... like...

the whole game.
No? Unless you mean that reasoning about the given role distribution in a given open setup is meta, too. In that case, we are talking about different kinds of metas.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:36 am

Post by Psyche »

I do think I prefer mafia between strangers, but I don't think it's some sort of objective ideal that games should generally be designed to simulate.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:51 am

Post by Ythan »

Thanks for joining my yet-unstarted closed game FB!
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:57 am

Post by chamber »

In post 4, AlwaysInnocent wrote:I tend to agree (although horrible might be offensive to well-intentioned mods that do closed setups). In my view every game should be open. The possible role distributions should be known to all players (so Matrix6 is also OK). This is necessary for meaningful game play that does not rely on highly subjective meta-thinking.


I completely disagree. I find that often in opensetups breaking the setup or playing it optimally supersedes good day play, which I feel should be the bread and butter of mafia. In closed setups there is only sort of meta-thinking when evaluating claims, which is relatively minor.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:13 am

Post by Davsto »

In post 12, Ythan wrote:Thanks for joining my yet-unstarted closed game FB!

Considering the title is a statement rather than an opinion (X is rather than I think X is), and the only word is the post is "discuss", my guess is that Fire posted this just to start the discussion on a topic that had been brought up once or twice in recent discussion threads, rather than it being his opinion.

As for my view, I don't really like open setups. It's hard to make one which isn't easily breakable without limiting yourself in terms of roles or sticking to the very small range of existing open setups, which tend to be boring in my view.

You also lose the power of many interesting roles or synergies between roles if you make the setup open. Look at loads of different closed setups, and think about how they'd work if they were open. Chances are, the answer will be along the lines of "badly".

Also, just personally, the open games I have played have been the games I've enjoyed the least. Figuring out the setup is one of my favourite things about Mafia (see both of the Everything Is A Lie games), and having that already known is boring.

tl;dr - Having the setup known can make the game boring and/or predictable, breaking strategies are easily found if you want a game with interesting or complex roles, etc.

Basically, I can see the appeal of Open setups over Closed, but personally Closed is better for my enjoyment.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:15 am

Post by hiplop »

really not a fan of open setups. too breakable usually, less variety for fun fake claims and usually are dangerous for scum.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:57 am

Post by VysePresident »

In post 4, AlwaysInnocent wrote:I tend to agree (although horrible might be offensive to well-intentioned mods that do closed setups). In my view every game should be open. The possible role distributions should be known to all players (so Matrix6 is also OK). This is necessary for meaningful game play that does not rely on highly subjective meta-thinking.


It's ironic, but I feel the same way about most setup speculation, short of an outright gamebreaking strategy.

Just my 02, but meta works as long as you know how to use it effectively, and it's honestly kinda more in the point of the game, in my opinion.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:55 am

Post by Firebringer »

In post 12, Ythan wrote:Thanks for joining my yet-unstarted closed game FB!

I can never hate your setups Ythan, even if I have yet to play in one, love you pal <3
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"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:56 am

Post by Firebringer »

In post 8, Cheetory6 wrote:This is probably an extension of your reaction to Mana mini theme.

Yep "Discuss" is an extension.
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"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:08 pm

Post by Majiffy »

Looks like a number of people have already elaborated for me.

Thanks team, keep it up.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:15 pm

Post by fferyllt »

Good thing there's an open queue for players who don't like closed setups.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:25 pm

Post by Zachrulez »

Is there an actual argument for closed games being horrible or did I just completely miss it?

A good open/semi open game can be fun, but in general it can get boring if there's a clear optimal strategy to follow and people would rather follow it over lynching the super obviously scum player.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:30 pm

Post by Firebringer »

Closed Setup is awful because you don't know what you are walking into at all.

You join a game that is called "balance" by others, but what makes them credible at analyzing the balance of a setup? And I am not saying I am better at balancing a setup than anyone else, but I just don't think balance is very easy to get. Theres always something that breaks it, you can only do the best you can.

One player base game that has op town might be completely balanced because the town players aren't that good.
Another might have weak town but town doesn't need it because the town is in general good.

I think the huge disadvantage to playing a Closed game is you have to put faith that the moderator made a truly balanced game. A semi-open/open you can decide straight up "Hey is this balanced?" If you think not, then don't play or go in KNOWING that fact.
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"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:33 pm

Post by Spiffeh »

In post 20, fferyllt wrote:Good thing there's an open queue for players who don't like closed setups.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:35 pm

Post by Zachrulez »

In post 22, Firebringer wrote:Closed Setup is awful because you don't know what you are walking into at all.

You join a game that is called "balance" by others, but what makes them credible at analyzing the balance of a setup? And I am not saying I am better at balancing a setup than anyone else, but I just don't think balance is very easy to get. Theres always something that breaks it, you can only do the best you can.

One player base game that has op town might be completely balanced because the town players aren't that good.
Another might have weak town but town doesn't need it because the town is in general good.

I think the huge disadvantage to playing a Closed game is you have to put faith that the moderator made a truly balanced game. A semi-open/open you can decide straight up "Hey is this balanced?" If you think not, then don't play or go in KNOWING that fact.


Outside of a bastard game, I can give you a pretty good idea of what will be in a game based on it's size.

A closed normal of 13p will generally have 3 scum, and 2-4 town power roles. You might not know WHAT the power roles are, or whether or not scum have power roles, but it's not like you walk into a closed game completely blind in general either.
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