Closed Setups Are Horrible

[AlwaysInnocent]

You have an easy solution, anyway. Don't like closed setups? Don't join them. That's what matrix6 is for *shrug*

What's wrong with a discussion about the pros and cons of open and closed setups?

[Antihero]

nothing, as long as you're not asking for a change in the queue system to meet an imaginary demand

[chamber]

You have an easy solution, anyway. Don't like closed setups? Don't join them. That's what matrix6 is for *shrug*

What's wrong with a discussion about the pros and cons of open and closed setups?

You didn't really come off as discussing it, more stating your opinion as fact. Previously when people have done that it's been to try and elicit change in site structure. In this case basically no one else wants that so you get some people reacting more negatively.

[Firebringer]

nothing, as long as you're not asking for a change in the queue system to meet an imaginary demand

I would like Closed setups restructured to have a little more transparency than currently exists for instance "Theme" doesn't tell you really anything except the game will have flavor.

"Bastard" can tell you a lot but I think there should be intermediary between what is "Normal" and "Bastard" that could give players lot of info to what they are getting into.

I don't know, but I think transparency would go a long way with helping Closed games be less....annoying to participate in.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You didn't really come off as discussing it, more stating your opinion as fact.

I just have some strong opinions about the game. I guess I need watch my tone more then.

Previously when people have done that it's been to try and elicit change in site structure. In this case basically no one else wants that so you get some people reacting more negatively.

I will be more mindful of that and make it more clear that it is just my personal opinion.

[ika]

He problem your producing fire is that you are a minority voice about this said problem. Like technically speaking all games are already not closed and semi open but the fact that it's has to be disclosed if it's bastard or not.

At work but I'll be more indepth later

[chamber]

I don't consider that the definition of semi-open at all. I would define a semi-open as a setup where there is a reasonably bounded possible set of roles the moderator is known to be taking roles from. Even normals aren't semi-open under such a definition.

[Firebringer]

He problem your producing fire is that you are a minority voice about this said problem. Like technically speaking all games are already not closed and semi open but the fact that it's has to be disclosed if it's bastard or not.

At work but I'll be more indepth later

Well I think when people come in and see problems with the way things are done it might be help to see their opinions and at least consider them.
I don't see how me being a minority changes that.

Like look at the newbie queue.

What is its purpose?

Right now I see that its to get new players,also hopefully retain them, and indoctrinate the newer players to the playstyle of this site.

Ignoring the second part because I hate that purpose of newbie queue and don't think it should be its goal.

Now if you want to get new players and keep them I think having a consistent game type across games is key to this.

Newbie is a Semi-Open game.

90% of site is Closed.

Shouldn't the Newbie then be Closed? If you want to actually prepare the users for what its like to actually play on your site.

Setup is just as important as playstyles, so I don't see why its so different.

[talah]

I like closed setups. They let my mind roam and then I have to decide what's too-too fucked up to be real and what's somewhat likely to be possible. I rely on the reviewers to balance against that and I take advice in-game from folks who could either be scum or town. Then my own experience weighs in as well, but it ends up mainly being about assessing folks' motives.

It's immensely enjoyable having that level of unknown to figure out.

[talah]

Also have you seen the c9++ setups (iirc)? They're actually beautiful and what I've seen on other sites. I guess you could say they're open but the permutations at some point make open pretty similar to closed.

[talah]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9%2B%2B

[Firebringer]

I like closed setups. They let my mind roam and then I have to decide what's too-too fucked up to be real and what's somewhat likely to be possible. I rely on the reviewers to balance against that and I take advice in-game from folks who could either be scum or town. Then my own experience weighs in as well, but it ends up mainly being about assessing folks' motives.

It's immensely enjoyable having that level of unknown to figure out.

Wait how can you not do any of this in a open/semi-open? Like.....You can focus on scum hunting without looking at a setup and then use the setup as a afterthought when you are scumhunting.

In fact thats what you should be doing IMO. Setup speculation should always take backseat to actual scumhunting. You think someone is likely X role? Well are you scumreading them? If yes, then maybe they are X role if it can be scum role, or they must full of shit or you are wrong.

[talah]

Wellll,

I have the kind of attitude that even if you have strong reads you need to be ballsy enough to punch the big guy in the face toward the end of the game if you're around. Even if you're wrong. So closed setups actually facilitate that for me because I get to theorise about possibilities (and there are actually *finite* possibilities available) and yet still scumhunt as if the setup were open. In a way, closed setups let me be more creative in my thinking and theorising, thus gaining more information via scumhunting on the players who attempt to leverage the fact that the setup is closed. It also gives town PRs more space to hide, which is where balance kicks in.

I just like it more. it's more mysterious and interesting and I don't think I've seen a closed setup that was won based on town not knowing about the setup.

[Firebringer]

I've seen a closed setup that was won based on town not knowing about the setup.

What? I am confused on this.

[talah]

Are you confused on what I said though? I'm scumreading you now.

I don't think I've seen a closed setup that was won based on town not knowing about the setup.

[talah]

Or lightly townreading lol :)

[Firebringer]

Like, what does that even mean?
You can't attribute a win to something that isn't existing in the game. Thats like me saying "I have never seen a open setup that was won by knowing the setup" Nobody is putting into question that a player can win a Closed setup....

So are you saying that if players knew the setup going in they would win it?
Or saying that not knowing isn't a disadvantage?

I am seriously confused...

[talah]

I'm wondering what the problem is with closed setups if they offer variety and mental stimulation to a game and don't really influence the outcome of games.

Open setups are an option (and I apologise if I missed the last page or two of pointed discussion) and are half the queues here, including the newbie queue - even if that's semi-open, which lies in between both polar opposites.

I guess what I don't get - is why does a closed setup make so much of a difference to you if you'll also argue that scumhunting is paramount? I'll argue the same thiing. I just find closed more fun.

[Firebringer]

I'm wondering what the problem is with closed setups if they offer variety and mental stimulation to a game and don't really influence the outcome of games.

Open setups are an option (and I apologise if I missed the last page or two of pointed discussion) and are half the queues here, including the newbie queue - even if that's semi-open, which lies in between both polar opposites.

I guess what I don't get - is why does a closed setup make so much of a difference to you if you'll also argue that scumhunting is paramount? I'll argue the same thiing. I just find closed more fun.

Closed setups do interfere with game....I meant they don't interfere with scumhunting.

Different roles change the outcomes of game nights which impact the game, yes?

If you take out roles of the equations and are just interacting with players to hunt for alignment which is a majority of what day talk is for, no it doesn't matter what the roles in game are. But in grand scheme, yes. It will matter because the game isn't just Day talk. The games aren't all just Vanilla.

And no, Open doesn't make up half the games on here. It might be up to 25% but its really closer to around 10%.

At least 40 of my 50~ so completed games were Closed. So I don't know where you are getting your half from.

[Firebringer]

In a way, closed setups let me be more creative in my thinking and theorising

I don't even think this is true.

Like, remember BBMolla New York game?
People were saying IaI couldn't be scum for role and all setup theorizing had that going into it.

I didn't setup spec at all and when I scum read him and people said "Ohh but he claimed X role how can you see him as scum" I said "Ohh well he is still scum"

We aren't as creative as we think we are lol.

I swear BBMolla created that exact game just to fuck with Site Meta on how setups are designed.

Nobody expected it and thats part of why scum won.

[talah]

Well the Molla game was advertised as an experiment. I thought the setup was interesting as I said post-game even though I was correct on the scumteam.

How do you have 40-50 games here with a June 2015 join date?

Maybe you're just not appreciating the games for what they are? I mean Molla's game was technically semi-open in my mind (or at least some breed of semi-open, as opposed to closed) since it was sitting in the "Normal" bracket. You can deduce roles from that, and I certainly tried but they were all wrong (apart form my own experience of a closed game which also had a scum vig).

[talah]

Well actually both of FEA and Gundam contained a scum vig and they were both "closed" (or rather "theme") and I got killed by scum vig's both times so I'm probably a bit atypical.

Still - Theme games are not the same as Normal games are not the same as Open games - which are the 3 queues available.

And hey - if I don't want to deal with setup spec I'll join an open. You can't say that "90% is closed is BAD" when it's purely based on people choosing the game type they'll be in?

[talah]

(although I'll argue that setup spec is *much more prevalent* in an open but meh)

[talah]

or at least role-spec and discussion

[Firebringer]

(although I'll argue that setup spec is *much more prevalent* in an open but meh)

You just contradicted your own argument.

*facepalm*

*facepalm*

lol.