Questions about a theme I am working on.

[xRECKONERx]

You know who else disagreed with revolutionary ideas? The world when it was proposed that the world was round, or that the earth actually revolved around the sun. What's your point?

Oh, honey.

[Plotinus]

I suppose people thought you posted your setup here because you wanted feedback on how to make it better, which involves criticising it and saying what is wrong with it.

[Powder Punk Girl]

So what you are saying is mafia is srs bzns on this site and I shouldn't mention any alterations in anyway shape or form it at all or expect a hellstorm of negativity form the users.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, and cultists/recruiting factions are considered bastardly and are heavily discouraged from existing specifically because they change win conditions.

Traitors do not change wincons.

to be fair, this is a bullshit definition of bastardly that exists purely because PJ didn't like cults and fought tooth and nail to get them banned even though they're awesome.

doesn't mean this game is workable though.

[Powder Punk Girl]

I suppose people thought you posted your setup here because you wanted feedback on how to make it better, which involves criticising it and saying what is wrong with it.

Well constructive criticism is very much welcome such as "too many vigs" as one poster had said, straight up negativity such as "it'll never work give up" isn't.

[xRECKONERx]

So what you are saying is mafia is srs bzns on this site and I shouldn't mention any alterations in anyway shape or form it at all or expect a hellstorm of negativity form the users.

I'm saying you came to a mafia site asking for critiques on a game that you're calling mafia that isn't actually mafia.

You're not the first person to try and "revolutionize" mafia with the question, "What if there were multiple towns?" and you're not the first person to have this idea shot down by people who have studied and played mafia for the better part of a decade.

[Powder Punk Girl]

Yes, and cultists/recruiting factions are considered bastardly and are heavily discouraged from existing specifically because they change win conditions.

Traitors do not change wincons.

to be fair, this is a bullshit definition of bastardly that exists purely because PJ didn't like cults and fought tooth and nail to get them banned even though they're awesome.

doesn't mean this game is workable though.

Doesn't mean it isn't either.

[xRECKONERx]

Having separate town wincons mean they are no longer town, just saying.

If you wanted to have this work, leave everyone with the same wincon as the same town, but have them have qualifiers. Don't make them eliminate each other, but for example, have a Zerg Cop that will only return results on Zerg players, etc.

[Powder Punk Girl]

So what you are saying is mafia is srs bzns on this site and I shouldn't mention any alterations in anyway shape or form it at all or expect a hellstorm of negativity form the users.

I'm saying you came to a mafia site asking for critiques on a game that you're calling mafia that isn't actually mafia.

You're not the first person to try and "revolutionize" mafia with the question, "What if there were multiple towns?" and you're not the first person to have this idea shot down by people who have studied and played mafia for the better part of a decade.

ok there big guy, condescension doesn't look good on anyone. Like I said before if you have nothing to contribute, why bother posting? I get that you think you are all that, citing your years of experience and all but guess what? I'm not new to mafia, forum or otherwise. And also as I said if I try and the game is a bust, how is it any skin off your back?

[Powder Punk Girl]

Having separate town wincons mean they are no longer town, just saying.

If you wanted to have this work, leave everyone with the same wincon as the same town, but have them have qualifiers. Don't make them eliminate each other, but for example, have a Zerg Cop that will only return results on Zerg players, etc.

See this is helpful thank you.

[Ankamius]

Who is on their team changes, therefore their wincon changes.

No because their wincon is and always will be to eliminate the threats to their faction. You act as if cultists, traitors, and other recruitment style factions don't exist.

wat

[xRECKONERx]

So what you are saying is mafia is srs bzns on this site and I shouldn't mention any alterations in anyway shape or form it at all or expect a hellstorm of negativity form the users.

I'm saying you came to a mafia site asking for critiques on a game that you're calling mafia that isn't actually mafia.

You're not the first person to try and "revolutionize" mafia with the question, "What if there were multiple towns?" and you're not the first person to have this idea shot down by people who have studied and played mafia for the better part of a decade.

ok there big guy, condescension doesn't look good on anyone. Like I said before if you have nothing to contribute, why bother posting? I get that you think you are all that, citing your years of experience and all but guess what? I'm not new to mafia, forum or otherwise. And also as I said if I try and the game is a bust, how is it any skin off your back?

"I came to this forum for critique and then got critiqued, and now I'm crying about it. WHAT DO YOU EVEN CARE?"

[xRECKONERx]

I AM NOT NEW AND I KNOW A LOT ABOUT MAFIA

WHICH IS WHY I'M SUGGESTING THIS BULLSHIT SETUP THAT IS B A N A N A S AND NOT EVEN REALLY MAFIA

[Powder Punk Girl]

So what you are saying is mafia is srs bzns on this site and I shouldn't mention any alterations in anyway shape or form it at all or expect a hellstorm of negativity form the users.

I'm saying you came to a mafia site asking for critiques on a game that you're calling mafia that isn't actually mafia.

You're not the first person to try and "revolutionize" mafia with the question, "What if there were multiple towns?" and you're not the first person to have this idea shot down by people who have studied and played mafia for the better part of a decade.

ok there big guy, condescension doesn't look good on anyone. Like I said before if you have nothing to contribute, why bother posting? I get that you think you are all that, citing your years of experience and all but guess what? I'm not new to mafia, forum or otherwise. And also as I said if I try and the game is a bust, how is it any skin off your back?

"I came to this forum for critique and then got critiqued, and now I'm crying about it. WHAT DO YOU EVEN CARE?"

There has been only two critiques, the rest has been unadulterated bashing with no helpful insight.

[Powder Punk Girl]

I AM NOT NEW AND I KNOW A LOT ABOUT MAFIA

WHICH IS WHY I'M SUGGESTING THIS BULLSHIT SETUP THAT IS B A N A N A S AND NOT EVEN REALLY MAFIA

Why are you so bloody salty about this?

[Powder Punk Girl]

I'll tell you what, once I get the game setup ready and it's played I'll post results and you can laugh in my face when it fails or I can be humble and not even say I told you so when it succeeds.

[Ankamius]

PPG, you're being way too stubborn about this.

The setup isn't mafia. It straight up isn't. It's not an informed minority vs an uninformed majority, it's basically an informed minority vs essentially 3 uninformed minorities that happen to be bigger minorities.

The setup doesn't work because there's three virtually identical factions that have no information on who the rest of their faction is, and giving them that information is an extremely bad idea since scum will immediately be PoE'd out. It's not going to be fun for any of the town factions since if they lose their mason, suddenly the 2/3 of the game is not part of their faction anymore, but they just don't have any information about who they have to keep alive. Everything else is secondary to this point alone, and I can't think of any way to fix this inherent flaw without completely breaking the setup in town's favor.

[Powder Punk Girl]

But you are saying giving them that information would ruin scum's chances, where am I saying that they get that information? Also I have never been apart of a game where town knew who they were to keep alive either.

[Thestatusquo]

He's saying that currently you don't give them that information, which makes the game not function as an information game (which is what mafia is) but if you gave them that information it would also not work because then scum would be literally unable to win.

I want to take a constructive crack at making this game more workable later tonight, but I don't know if I'll get to it.

Also, reck, you're being an asshole for no reason. Calm down, dude.

[Ankamius]

Just as a clarification, 41 differs from normal mafia games because those three factions can't be scumhunted. If the scumteam is eliminated and at least one mason is dead, then there's really no point in actually playing the game since literally the only information differential that can be 'scumhunted' is based on role. This is still loosely solvable, but it

requires

random lynching to be usable at all. Without that, it's literally just choosing names out of a hat and eliminating them until someone's win condition magically gets met.

It's not a fun idea.

PEdit: You never said they get that information. I'm saying that the problem I outlined with your set-up as it is can only be solved in that manner.

The only other way it could potentially work is if every single town player was a self-faction cop, but that's not great either since town would just no lynch every day until the scumteam were PoEd and hope that no masons would be nightkilled. It would just run into the same problem if any masons die.

[Ankamius]

Also I have never been apart of a game where town knew who they were to keep alive either.

Masons.

[Kamigami]

This post will very likely show up as a google hit for some player who wants to research the flavor. You're probably underestimating the extent to which it's spoiled by being here, especially since it's unworkable as an open due to all the uniquely named roles.

I think this can become reasonable if you accept the primary criticism: there should be only one Town. Once you have that, if you want to preserve flavor, you're going to have to rethink how the different factions (by which I mean zerg-terran-protoss) interact. A possibility mentioned above is something like having faction-specific roles. If you do that, you should expect Day 1 to start with a mass faction claim unless you give players some reason not to.

In general, I don't think it's a good idea to maintain the notion that the three factions are irreconcilably different, especially given that they have a common enemy. I didn't really follow it, but I believe Hitogorashi's signs and void had players with three different "signs" that you might draw ideas from.

[Powder Punk Girl]

Just as a clarification, 41 differs from normal mafia games because those three factions can't be scumhunted. If the scumteam is eliminated and at least one mason is dead, then there's really no point in actually playing the game since literally the only information differential that can be 'scumhunted' is based on role. This is still loosely solvable, but it

requires

random lynching to be usable at all. Without that, it's literally just choosing names out of a hat and eliminating them until someone's win condition magically gets met.

It's not a fun idea.

PEdit: You never said they get that information. I'm saying that the problem I outlined with your set-up as it is can only be solved in that manner.

The only other way it could potentially work is if every single town player was a self-faction cop, but that's not great either since town would just no lynch every day until the scumteam were PoEd and hope that no masons would be nightkilled. It would just run into the same problem if any masons die.

Fair enough, but that's why I was looking at making abilities only workable on your faction if something helpful such as doc or BG, and workable on opposing factions if something like vig.

[Powder Punk Girl]

Also I have never been apart of a game where town knew who they were to keep alive either.

Masons.

>.< ha ha ha yea

[Powder Punk Girl]

This post will very likely show up as a google hit for some player who wants to research the flavor. You're probably underestimating the extent to which it's spoiled by being here, especially since it's unworkable as an open due to all the uniquely named roles.

I think this can become reasonable if you accept the primary criticism: there should be only one Town. Once you have that, if you want to preserve flavor, you're going to have to rethink how the different factions (by which I mean zerg-terran-protoss) interact. A possibility mentioned above is something like having faction-specific roles. If you do that, you should expect Day 1 to start with a mass faction claim unless you give players some reason not to.

In general, I don't think it's a good idea to maintain the notion that the three factions are irreconcilably different, especially given that they have a common enemy. I didn't really follow it, but I believe Hitogorashi's signs and void had players with three different "signs" that you might draw ideas from.

Ok fair enough, I do kind of like the idea of faction specific roles. This whole thing is just in the beginning stages of development anyway. Thank you.