Hydra free zones.

[RadiantCowbells]

fair enough then.

[Thestatusquo]

No, I don't like playing with any hydras. It's not an issue of quality.

[Antihero]

I'd also suggest that very few people, even in the hydra liking camp, would enjoy playing with a hydra like the many I've seen where the heads are off doing their own thing, have no communication, etc.

i do agree w/ that.

hydras that have no chemistry OR hydras like what hito was saying earlier (neither head really has time to devote to the game so they go "oh let's hydra huehuehuehue" and both heads end up half-assing it and/or flaking out)

those i don't like

[mykonian]

Please note: this is not in any way an indication we are about to ban hydras.

It's been too long since we've had some proper abuse of power.

Live a little!

[Antihero]

i see the reinforcements have arrived in the war against fun

[mykonian]

I didn't want to respond to you

the unfair advantage only comes from people letting them get away with that

don't.

But this sounds like: "I'm having fun, can you clean up the mess, please?".

[Antihero]

i'm yanking your chain, myko

you're fine

[mykonian]

and I'm more or less derailing the thread

On a whole I second this though. I don't mind themes, normals I used to review quite a bit, opens have a certain crowd. Some of my mafia breaks haven't been entirely by my own choice.

[Glork]

Disclaimer: haven't read much of the thread. Might be some redundancy coming up.

Hydras were originally allowed on rare occasions when two parties were very interested in a particular theme/game but would be unable to meet posting requirements. I believe the first example of hydra use was in mith's Verbose Mafia, although I could be mistaken. The intent of a hydra was to be a functional tool to allow almost a "temporary replacement" if a player knew he was going to be without access for a period of time during a game.

At some point, they became something of a norm, rather than an exception, and in current site meta they are everywhere because people seem to be incapable of just playing Mafia as themselves, as the game was intended. Hydras DO affect balance. They allow for unfair / unsportsmanlike manipulation of players and the game itself. I've seen people fake disagreements, and play dishonestly for the sake of trying to achieve an in-game advantage through the use of a hydra. I'm not saying that this is common (although without naming names, I would certainly argue that it is common for certain individuals who frequently play in hydras), but it in my personal opinion, it has become more of a problem than any benefit it adds to any given individual game.

I don't allow hydras in games I moderate, and like TSQ I stay away from many games that include hydras -- especially ones involving certain people, or a high saturation of hydras. I get that it's fun for some people. But it also risks altering a game experience in a way that neither players nor moderators can anticipate.

In my most recent game (MAFIACEPTION), I brought back another OLD mechanic that was intended to improve the flow of a game during periods where one or more players had to go on V/LA: Proxy votes. The idea is that if a player knows they will be away for an extended period of time, they can temporarily give another player control over their vote. Unfortunately, there were signs of abuse of this feature in MAFICEPTION, and as such is the case, I don't see myself using it again in the near future.

Both proxy voting and hydra "abuse" (I use the term pretty loosely here) really sadden me. This site was once almost completely honorable, where people just wanted to play a fun game and had one another (and the game moderators) in the forefront of their minds when approaching such things. Now, it seems that there's a subculture of using any and every advantage to win first. To hell with fairness, honesty, and the spirit of the game. That is why I avoid certain players on the rare occasion I *do* play, and it just saddens me overall.

I think that having a hydra-free tag or approach for games could be a great benefit. It would make it easier for players like myself and TSQ to find games we are interested in. If I were site overlord, I'd ban hydras altogether except in very specific cases, but I recognize that there is a culture & popularity that probably merits allowing them.

I don't think that there is an easily implemented solution that would make everyone people happy, but I do think there's merit in exploring some not-so-easily implemented solution to make it easier for players to find games (and/or moderators) whose approaches and policies to forum Mafia largely align with their own.

[Thestatusquo]

I think theres a tone of "the good ol' days" in your post Glork that I just can't agree with. I think that there was a lot of "people caring a lot more about winning than they cared about the game or other players" going on back then too, its just that we've regulated a lot of the practices that were issues then. For instance, quoting role PMs had to be a rule because people made it have to be a rule. Trust tells are against the rules because people tried to use trust tells. People used to post in invisible text and fake hammer. People used to play without reading their role PM to not read as scum.

It's just the methods have changed. People on the internet are still people on the internet.

[hiplop]

There are bad hydras and good hydras. I've been in both examples. I prefer hydras having a unified voice, but whatever.

A bad hydra is obvious. For example, I wanted to hydra with mollie, so I asked in sitechat. Then I got an offer from ika that I knew I shouldn't have taken. Me and mollie crushed games as hippy love, while me nor ika could follow through in our game. It big time has to do with chemistry between the heads.

I like them. They are fun, I think they don't really give much of an advantage except in very certain circumstances

[Persivul]

Personally, I'll sign up for a game with 1 hydra. Two or more and I pass it by.

Something that turned me off to hydras early on was a hydra insisting that people refer to the separate heads. I mean WTF, if you want to play as a hydra and the mod allows it, that's your business...BUT, if I want to scum read the hydra without going into detail on the separate heads, that's my business.

Also annoying is hydras that barely post. I think sometimes each head figures the other will carry it, and neither does in the end.

[Porochaz]

I think many people don't care enough to try to search high and low for a hydra-less game right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few who if given a choice would prefer one without a hydra. On the other hand, you have people like hiplop.

A few times in the last year I've looked at games and the fact that every single game has allowed hydra is one of the main reasons I decided not to play.

[zoraster]

Most queues will now ask every mod whether or not they allow hydras. For queues with longer wait times for mods, it may be a bit before we see the change, but hopefully it'll bring about more games that don't allow hydras.

[Alchemist21]

I'm planning on joining the Mini theme queue very shortly, and the large theme queue after that. I promise that hydrae will not be allowed in either of those games.

[Thestatusquo]

Most queues will now ask every mod whether or not they allow hydras. For queues with longer wait times for mods, it may be a bit before we see the change, but hopefully it'll bring about more games that don't allow hydras.

cheers, zora. Glad something came of this.

would still like a more hands on solution, but lets see if this one yields positive results before throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[zoraster]

Yeah bother me some time in August or September and we can go back and comb through to see if it increased availability of hydra free games. I'm going to ask my listmods to make a note on each sign up thing whether or not hydras are allowed.

[Drixx]

Disclaimer: haven't read much of the thread. Might be some redundancy coming up.

Hydras were originally allowed on rare occasions when two parties were very interested in a particular theme/game but would be unable to meet posting requirements. I believe the first example of hydra use was in mith's Verbose Mafia, although I could be mistaken. The intent of a hydra was to be a functional tool to allow almost a "temporary replacement" if a player knew he was going to be without access for a period of time during a game.

At some point, they became something of a norm, rather than an exception, and in current site meta they are everywhere because people seem to be incapable of just playing Mafia as themselves, as the game was intended. Hydras DO affect balance. They allow for unfair / unsportsmanlike manipulation of players and the game itself. I've seen people fake disagreements, and play dishonestly for the sake of trying to achieve an in-game advantage through the use of a hydra. I'm not saying that this is common (although without naming names, I would certainly argue that it is common for certain individuals who frequently play in hydras), but it in my personal opinion, it has become more of a problem than any benefit it adds to any given individual game.

I don't allow hydras in games I moderate, and like TSQ I stay away from many games that include hydras -- especially ones involving certain people, or a high saturation of hydras. I get that it's fun for some people. But it also risks altering a game experience in a way that neither players nor moderators can anticipate.

In my most recent game (MAFIACEPTION), I brought back another OLD mechanic that was intended to improve the flow of a game during periods where one or more players had to go on V/LA: Proxy votes. The idea is that if a player knows they will be away for an extended period of time, they can temporarily give another player control over their vote. Unfortunately, there were signs of abuse of this feature in MAFICEPTION, and as such is the case, I don't see myself using it again in the near future.

Both proxy voting and hydra "abuse" (I use the term pretty loosely here) really sadden me. This site was once almost completely honorable, where people just wanted to play a fun game and had one another (and the game moderators) in the forefront of their minds when approaching such things. Now, it seems that there's a subculture of using any and every advantage to win first. To hell with fairness, honesty, and the spirit of the game. That is why I avoid certain players on the rare occasion I *do* play, and it just saddens me overall.

I think that having a hydra-free tag or approach for games could be a great benefit. It would make it easier for players like myself and TSQ to find games we are interested in. If I were site overlord, I'd ban hydras altogether except in very specific cases, but I recognize that there is a culture & popularity that probably merits allowing them.

I don't think that there is an easily implemented solution that would make everyone people happy, but I do think there's merit in exploring some not-so-easily implemented solution to make it easier for players to find games (and/or moderators) whose approaches and policies to forum Mafia largely align with their own.

I've only ever played in hydra with two people. One was an unmitigated disaster and won't be repeated. The other is pretty solid though. Since the player in question and I are very compatible and active, and since we talk in private constantly, you don't get the problems that I

think

most people who object to hydras dislike.

There's a pretty strong upside in some cases as well, and the talk of banning hydras outright bothers me a bit. There have been games where we played as a hydra and even with us taking one slot instead of two (and in some cases, other hydrae in the games), there were people who wanted to play who got left out. That's a thing with some moderators who put on really fun games and go the extra miles to make them enjoyable to the max.

I mean ... it's a small bit of weight on the "hydras are a good thing" side of the scale, but it's a thing.

Apart from the abuse of being in a hydra to violate the spirit of the game, and hydras which are ill conceived and can't play as one, I'm not sure I understand the anti-hydra thing at all.

[kuribo]

you say "you learn to do it"

son, I was in the FIRST hydra game and I've been playing with, playing in, and modding hydras since Day motherfuckin 1.

You're also a member of the sexiest hydra on this site

[Untrod Tripod]

OKAY FINE WE'LL RUN ANOTHER TROUSER GOD GAME

JESUS

[kuribo]

Most queues will now ask every mod whether or not they allow hydras. For queues with longer wait times for mods, it may be a bit before we see the change, but hopefully it'll bring about more games that don't allow hydras.

My take on hydras:

I enjoy playing as a hydra sometimes, on the rare occasion I actually play anymore. I find its more fun if I'm not just bitching and screaming impotently at myself during a game. And I'm pretty picky about who I'll hydra with, although I think everyone should hydra with DGB and mollie at least once in their lives. Getting insight into how DGB plays Mafia can change your outlook on life. Playing with mollie has a similar effect: her laser-like focus is almost infectious. It's no coincidence that these are two of the people on the site I generally feel the closest to. I don't enjoy playing Mafia anymore. Haven't for years, really, which is why I rarely play. I take the game too seriously and too personally. It doesn't just become a game to me, it becomes arguments with people I either like or want to like. So on the rare occasions I've decided to play over the last couple years, it's usually been in a hydra. Mostly for personal reasons. So as for being IN a hydra, I rather enjoy it on the level I enjoy anything in Mafia.

Playing AGAINST hydra can be fairly annoying, and I can see why people would be annoyed by the hydras I'm in. One or two in a game? No big. Five? Oh fuck that. It just makes things more difficult for town. It inflates post counts, and I'm sorry if I'm wrong and data has been researched but: I also am concerned that it waters down the player list for games. I.e., you have a finite number of players who are allowed by site rule to be in a finite number of games. So when you have four slots of a 13 player game taken up by ten people, for example, that's 19 players in a 13 player setup. Nineteen players, six of which could have queued for another game.

As a moderator, hydras kinda annoy me. Out of hydra posting is annoying as hell and makes things harder as a moderator.

[kuribo]

OKAY FINE WE'LL RUN ANOTHER TROUSER GOD GAME

JESUS

WELL I MEAN WE SET IT UP FOR A SEQUEL AND EVERYTHING

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hydras are like lots of things in life - in moderation and done properly they can be fun for the hydra and fun for the other players in the game.

Unfortunately neither of these two things seem to apply to a large number of Hydras on site currently.

[kuribo]

Hydras are like lots of things in life - in moderation and done properly they can be fun for the hydra and fun for the other players in the game.

Unfortunately neither of these two things seem to apply to a large number of Hydras on site currently.

Neither of those two things apply to a lot of things on this site


Btw while you're here did you know I killed you off n0 in a game I moderated a few years ago lol
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=32305

[callforjudgement]

Another potential issue with hydras is that they slow the queue, meaning that moderators need longer to take their turn. Instead of everyone trying to cram into the same top-quality game, wouldn't it be great if we had a larger supply of games of that quality?