Fake-flaking for theory reasons

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Fake-flaking for theory reasons

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2016 1:59 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Something that came up as a result of various gambits during the recently concluded Micro 604 was the notion that sometimes, the best play (or even the only one that fits your win condition) can be pretending to be offline. In the game, Not_Mafia voted for me in order to test SnarkySnowman (who as town should have also voted for me, a move which would cause him to immediately lose if scum as it would have confirmed enough players as town that they could chain-lynch their way to victory). As it is, SnarkySnowman refused to vote (which he had to as scum) and ended up losing. Voting for me wouldn't have worked as scum either, so the only move there which had a chance of saving the game would have been to pretend not to be online. (Something similar happened later in the game; I as town wanted to hedge against the possibility of Fire_Assassin being scum, which I could only do by not voting and hoping that someone else voted first, but there was a real risk of looking like scum if I posted without a vote. So I tried to pretend to be offline, but Fire_Assassin saw me online in the list of online players on the front page, and basically forced me into a vote. It turns out Fire_Assassin was town anyway, so this didn't matter, but pretending to flake would have been how I could have maximised my victory chances.)

There are other situations in which pretending to flake is a good idea based on theory considerations (for example, in some 1:1:1 endgames, something that I explained a while back to quite some controversy; here, unlike in the Micro listed above, it's not to leave the possibility that you wanted to vote but couldn't open, but rather to trick other players into thinking you won't be around to hammer for the win).

I'm a little concerned about this general situation, in quite a few ways. One is that it affects other games that you're playing; I wasn't alive in other games at the time (and rarely join multiple games at once), so it's not a problem for me, but it could well be a problem for people who play in many games at a time (because fake-flaking in one generally requires fake-flaking in the others too). Another is that it forces timezones, deadline and activity rules to potentially have a major impact on the game's outcome (for example, whether prod timers are reset overNight or not can affect who is forced to post first). In the most extreme cases, posting anything at all could immediately lose you the game (this happens with some Worst Roles but potentially also in more normal games when weird gambits are involved); in such a situation, you basically have no option but to flake out and get replaced (with the replacement not posting anything either), which I doubt is very healthy for the site as a whole. Yet another problem is that it causes something of an ethics conflict; rulesets typically have both "stay active" and "play to your win condition" as rules, and it's unclear which of them should take precedence. Finally, there are some duties that some people have in hidden forums and private topics (e.g. I have Normal Review Group duties to do); this means that people onsite can have disadvantages or advantages depending on what parts of the site they're involved in (imagine if another Normal reviewer called me out for posting in a Normal review when I was pretending to be offline!).

In the game in question, I didn't feel too guilty about voting once Fire_Assassin had called me out for lurking, as there was a real risk of him concluding I was scum from the failure to vote (which would have lost town the game); this was mostly because I hadn't set the "hide my online status" option, though (I was at least being careful not to post to Mafia Discussion), something that I've now fixed so that the same issue won't ruin games in the future. In the future, this sort of ethical conflict seems like something that might quite reasonably happen, and I'm wondering how to resolve it. Perhaps some rule about "play to win, unless doing so would require you to stop posting in other games or interfere with your sleep schedule"?
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2016 2:41 pm

Post by Ircher »

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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2016 7:40 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

I don't necessarily think that's a necessary distinction, though I see the point to it.
"Play tk win" should always be the trump between the two.if that means inactivity, so be it. I have lurked in games as scum (it has become my meta, sadly), in order to position myself better. Sometimes interfering in a discussion ot a town implosion is a horrible idea, and thus sidelining us best for your wincon.

The issue with other games being effected us the most compelling part, I think, but also the least manageable. It really comes down to whether they can be sacrificed for the time being, or if you want to risk posting in some games but not others. This really depends on the games and the player in question though, and changes situationally.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2016 8:01 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

i don't really see the issue with not posting in all of your games for a period of time because of something happening in a single game; it won't affect your other games in any way unless those games have something that requires immediate attention (in which case, plan better) and "stay active" doesn't mean "post at every available opportunity" so i don't really see how it affects other games

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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2016 8:14 pm

Post by BNL »

Its because its using outside influences. You should never change your behaviour outside a game to affect what happens in game.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2016 8:18 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Right, ideally all the games you're in should be independent, but this seems to be a situation when one of them will inevitably affect another, one way round or the other.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2016 8:25 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

In post 4, BNL wrote:Its because its using outside influences. You should never change your behaviour outside a game to affect what happens in game.

i don't think you really understand what using outside influences means, unless you also think that checking a player's posting history in the first place is using outside influences
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2016 8:30 pm

Post by Plotinus »

well, the strategic lurking has a deadline: a couple days when you enter prod range. either your games can survive without you for a couple days, or they can't in which case you should apply a different strategy. if you're modding a game then the deadline for your lurking is "when i need to post a vote count."

You're going to have to post to avoid being prodded anyway. I think in the micro callforjudgement was in, he wasn't going to need to lurk for multiple days, but maybe just for some hours or for a day?
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Mon May 02, 2016 8:45 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

I needed SnarkySnowman to get online first (also to realise independently that he needed to place a vote to avoid the lynch); that way, if he voted the way I needed, I could hammer. (As it was, I was forced into voting first in lylo, which is known to hurt your win condition for theory reasons.) The problem is that he's a known lurker (he'd lurked for almost 72 hours earlier in the game), and I'm not, so it's unlikely I could keep it up for too long without people getting suspicious.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2016 5:20 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Sometimes you just gotta vote. You can't 'force' scum to vote first.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2016 6:11 am

Post by kuribo »

In post 9, Zachrulez wrote:Sometimes you just gotta vote. You can't 'force' scum to vote first.



this. any strategy that involves other people being online or voting in a certain order is already flawed
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2016 6:19 am

Post by Aristophanes »

Right, but what about being away and conveniently missing a question you know will incriminate you? They often get forgotten altogether.
Or a time when you'd have to bus if you were on, but really want to avoid that?
These are, perhaps, suboptimal plays. But with newer or less confident players, may be a necessity. These are decent times to do so, no?
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