Scum QT/private topics

[Jake from State Farm]

When did the allowing scum to refuse to release the topic once the game is over become a thing and why? Imo every topic should be released and scum shouldn't be able to refuse imo.

In 10 years of playing I've never heard of such a thing until this site and it's only seems to be the last year or 2.

[Creature]

When I see scum refusing to release their PT, I understand they did something naughty in that PT.

[Zachrulez]

It's actually been around since the birth of quick topics on the site.

I tend to be more in the camp that people should expect the topics to be posted at the conclusion of the game and post the topics myself now actually.

[TehBrawlGuy]

it's almost like the best solution is to not be an asshole, so that everyone can have fun

whoda thunk it

[BROseidon]

There has been 1 time where I didn't want a scum QT to be released, and that was b/c we had daytalk, so we had it in Skype with the mod present, and 95% of the content was personal shit b/w the scum team.

[BROseidon]

But not releasing has always been a thing for as long as I've been around.

[Jake from State Farm]

it's almost like the best solution is to not be an asshole, so that everyone can have fun

whoda thunk it

Huh?

[Jake from State Farm]

But not releasing has always been a thing for as long as I've been around.

Been here since 2010 and I think last year was probably the first I've heard of it.

Weird

[TehBrawlGuy]

it's almost like the best solution is to not be an asshole, so that everyone can have fun

whoda thunk it

Huh?

Don't be a dick in mafia PMs and say things that aren't releasable, Creature pretty much nailed it. There are definitely other reasons to withhold the PT, and I've seen them, but most of the time I see people complain about releasing things like that it's because they were badmouthing some player(s).

[Zachrulez]

But not releasing has always been a thing for as long as I've been around.

Been here since 2010 and I think last year was probably the first I've heard of it.

Weird

I'm not sure how often that conversation is had with the scumteam in public. That might be why you haven't noticed until recently.

[mykonian]

Well the difference between badmouthing players and coaching your partner on playing the game can be quite narrow. I think I've had games where I described ways to abuse a particular persons tendencies, because people are flawed and it's scums job to use that. Didn't mean that I actually needed to have that person read that they sucked in a particular way, I didn't mind them as a person. I also didn't need the entire site to read that about a person either, because opinion is such a curious thing and once you've been told you might see such a person in a different light.

But I would want to win that game, and if such a viewpoint could help my partner(s) I do want to post it. Scum's job is far from being nice. Outside of the game I do hope to be a nice person. That does mean I want to leave the way I play behind as the game ends.

As a player I figure this out on a case by case, as a mod I'll have the default at not revealing the PT's. Be that for simple things as meta (you do tend to show how you play the game there), or stuff like mentioned above.

[zoraster]

Alternative take: it wasn't until somewhat recently that releasing the scum QT at the end of the game because prevalent. It's not some sort of right of all players to see it just to satisfy some element of curiosity.

I prefer to allow my players to feel free to talk about the game as they see fit and not worry about what's said coming out after the game.

Allowing the players in the QT the chance to veto releasing it allows a freedom that wouldn't exist otherwise.

[Bins]

The only time I have seen this is just because of personal shit that went down in the QT and it was best to just end that shit there.

[zoraster]

i've also had times that people have discussed what they perceive to be their own tells and what not. Regardless of the reason, the idea behind the QTs is that they are private. It's interesting to go back and review the QT from a game you played in, but not necessary.

[Zachrulez]

Alternative take: it wasn't until somewhat recently that releasing the scum QT at the end of the game because prevalent. It's not some sort of right of all players to see it just to satisfy some element of curiosity.

I prefer to allow my players to feel free to talk about the game as they see fit and not worry about what's said coming out after the game.

Allowing the players in the QT the chance to veto releasing it allows a freedom that wouldn't exist otherwise.

Why should scum chat be treated any differently than in-game posts in the end?

[zoraster]

Why shouldn't they? The game posts are made in public and all, including those who aren't involved in the game, can see them. The Private Topics are, well, private.

[Bins]

i've also had times that people have discussed what they perceive to be their own tells and what not.

This is a fair reason imo!

[Zachrulez]

Why shouldn't they? The game posts are made in public and all, including those who aren't involved in the game, can see them. The Private Topics are, well, private.

My question was an exercise in thought about whether they

should

stay private when the need for the privacy ends. What they post is a matter of game record. If it wasn't important to have those records, why has the move to quicktopics and private topics been considered important? Why not just let the scum talk via pms or instant messenger then like we used to?

The only argument of substance I've seen for allowing privacy is to allow people to say things about other players that they don't want seen by those players later. My thought on that is that if they don't want it seen, maybe they shouldn't say it.

If there's any other reason to retain privacy after a game ends, I haven't heard it.

i've also had times that people have discussed what they perceive to be their own tells and what not.

This is a fair reason imo!

Scum don't have an inherent right to have their tells kept a secret. It's an excuse to not adapt your play to cover up those tells.

[Accountant]

Scum should release their PT so others can learn by lookimg at how they thought when playing. But I don't think they should be forced to.

[Alchemist21]

Scum should release their PT so others can learn by lookimg at how they thought when playing. But I don't think they should be forced to.

This is basically how I feel about it, plus if you have some personal comments you don't want seen you can ask the mod to edit those out before releasing the PT.

[zMuffinMan]

do people actually read PTs? tbh i think i only ever ctrl+f my name because the rest of it is usually boring

that said, im always mildly disappointed when i don't get to ctrl+f my name

[callforjudgement]

I read PTs, at least in games I've played in. (There's often a lot going on that I'm unclear on and am curious about, especially if I was town; the mod's night action rundown explains what but often not why.) And I often leave notes for the other players to read after the game in PTs I have access to (typically the scum/dead PT, although I've used a mason PT for the purpose in the past after my mason partner died).

One of the best arguments I can see for releasing them is that it avoids asymmetrical meta; if player A explains their tells to player B because they're scum together, then in some future game player A and player B are both playing and player B is trying to make a case on player A, they'd have trouble explaining their argument because it's based on information that's legal to talk about but that never became public. If player C who didn't play in the first game is trying to make a case on player A, they don't have the PT available and so are missing the line of argument. So by leaving PTs unreleased, you're giving an objective (if small) advantage to players who have played more games; it's not a level playing field.

Incidentally, what do people think of the idea of the mod creating hydra PTs and requiring hydras to use them, and releasing them after the game? They're as much a part of the game as the scum PT is.

[Accountant]

One of the best arguments I can see for releasing them is that it avoids asymmetrical meta; if player A explains their tells to player B because they're scum together, then in some future game player A and player B are both playing and player B is trying to make a case on player A, they'd have trouble explaining their argument because it's based on information that's legal to talk about but that never became public. If player C who didn't play in the first game is trying to make a case on player A, they don't have the PT available and so are missing the line of argument. So by leaving PTs unreleased, you're giving an objective (if small) advantage to players who have played more games; it's not a level playing field.

Player B shouldn't be making cases on meta in the first place, that's just bad form.

But I think Player C has been deprived of a chance to learn about mafia thought processes and sharpen his play by studying the games of others.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I read PTs, at least in games I've played in. (There's often a lot going on that I'm unclear on and am curious about, especially if I was town; the mod's night action rundown explains what but often not why.) And I often leave notes for the other players to read after the game in PTs I have access to (typically the scum/dead PT, although I've used a mason PT for the purpose in the past after my mason partner died).

One of the best arguments I can see for releasing them is that it avoids asymmetrical meta; if player A explains their tells to player B because they're scum together, then in some future game player A and player B are both playing and player B is trying to make a case on player A, they'd have trouble explaining their argument because it's based on information that's legal to talk about but that never became public. If player C who didn't play in the first game is trying to make a case on player A, they don't have the PT available and so are missing the line of argument. So by leaving PTs unreleased, you're giving an objective (if small) advantage to players who have played more games; it's not a level playing field.

Incidentally, what do people think of the idea of the mod creating hydra PTs and requiring hydras to use them, and releasing them after the game? They're as much a part of the game as the scum PT is.

I would endorse this. I think it would be very interesting.

[zMuffinMan]

how often do hydras speak strictly about the game they're in? scum buddies aren't people you choose to be scum with, but you still get conversations on a personal level in scum PTs sometimes. hydras on the other hand? they're people you hand-pick to be the same alignment with and that generally implies a closer relationship. i would be surprised if you'd find more than a handful that stick to talking about just the games in question

also, i think that if you can't make a case on someone without referring to comments in a private thread, then you're probably not a very good mafia player... and even if you do need to refer to them, just... refer to them. or quote them. i mean, really...

the only good justification for having all scum PTs released is that it probably makes the community as a whole stronger. i personally try to make any PT i'm a part of public specifically because i like providing commentary on what i think people are doing right or wrong, what points they're making that are good/bad, etc. and it gives insight into how i think (which isn't a disadvantage, despite what some people seem to think). that said, if someone doesn't want to make it public, it's their choice, so who really gives a shit. in the case where it's someone not wanting to give insight on their own playstyle, it generally means they have an incredibly weak or transparent scum game anyway, so it shouldn't be that hard to pick up on their tendencies without explicit knowledge of them