Weird Numbering of Alive Section in OP

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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:50 am

Post by Plotinus »

Vote Count 1.00With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch

:!:
Everybody
(L-5): Nobody

Not voting
(9): Alice, Bob, Carl, Dan, Evan, Flora, Grace, Harold, Ingrid

Deadline
: (expired on 2016-08-16 14:00:00)

Mod notes
: Please take a moment to familiarise yourselves with my ruleset as I have some rules you may not have encountered in previous games about prodging, proxying, fallback kills, last words, animated gifs, and perhaps some other things!


Vote Count 1.55With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch

:!:
Alice
(L-2): Carl,
Bob
, Dan, Harold
:!:
Ingrid
(L-2): Alice, Flora, Bob
Grace
(L-4): Evan
Evan
(L-4): Grace

Not voting
(1):
Flora, Harold
, Ingrid

Deadline
:
(expired on 2016-08-04 14:00:00).


Mod notes
: Harold is V/LA until today.

Ingrid is V/LA until Thursday.


The greyed out names are a changelog from the previous vote count (1.54): First Flora moved from unvoting to voting Ingrid, then Bob moved from voting Alice to also voting Ingrid, and at some point Harold voted Alice. The Alice wagon is above the Ingrid wagon because it's been at L-2 longer. Immediately after posting a VC, I quote it, remove the greyed out stuff so it's fresh, and save it as a draft.

The size of the deadline starts getting subtly bigger, just a tiny bit at first, when it's four days away and is unmistakably huge by the time there are only 24 hours left.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:58 am

Post by Firebringer »

I hate that crossed out grey thing of showing where the votes change.
If you want to see how the votes changed, just look at the previous VC.

Its so obnoxious seeing it.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:56 am

Post by Zachrulez »

In post 45, kuribo wrote:Any ordering of a vote count other than "most to least votes" is objectively the wrong way to do it.

Also who the fuck doesn't VC on hammer? That's lazy.
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:19 am

Post by Plotinus »

In post 51, Firebringer wrote:I hate that crossed out grey thing of showing where the votes change.
If you want to see how the votes changed, just look at the previous VC.

Its so obnoxious seeing it.
sometimes people change their vote multiple times between VCs. Also it makes vote changes stand out more. Sure you can find the 6s in this list if you look carefully:

8888888
8688868
8888888
8688868
8866688
8888888

but you can see them all instantly if they're made to stand out:

8888888
8
6
888
6
8
8888888
8
6
888
6
8
88
666
88
8888888
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:16 am

Post by Firebringer »

In post 53, Plotinus wrote:
In post 51, Firebringer wrote:I hate that crossed out grey thing of showing where the votes change.
If you want to see how the votes changed, just look at the previous VC.

Its so obnoxious seeing it.
sometimes people change their vote multiple times between VCs. Also it makes vote changes stand out more. Sure you can find the 6s in this list if you look carefully:

8888888
8688868
8888888
8688868
8866688
8888888

but you can see them all instantly if they're made to stand out:

8888888
8
6
888
6
8
8888888
8
6
888
6
8
88
666
88
8888888
If players want to do heavy VCA analysis they can ISO the player to see who they voted and when.
If players want to lazy VCA they can quote all the VCs that host posted and hope these are accurate representation of changes. Meaning it doesn't miss a lot of vote changes.

I think its just an eye sore to see those changes in the VC.
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:04 pm

Post by mastin2 »

My solution to that problem:
Have the normal VC be a normal VC, but have a spoilered second VC with the "ghosting" method. (Ghosting, for you that are too new to the site to know the term, is the original term for the "changes" format, AKA the strike-out format, AKA, what Plotinus's example is, it has half a dozen names, but ghosting is the name that I was raised with.)

Best of both worlds: those who want the changes can, with a single click, instantly see them. Those that want to see the current votes in their most relevant, current, in-the-now state (i.e., seeing a player's at L-2) can immediately see this with no hassle, no bother.
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:43 pm

Post by Marquis »

I prefer the "cleaner" style, but see the appeal in both. I think a good compromise if mods don't have the time to craft both kinds would be to record the post numbers of each change in vote (since you're using that to alter the VCs anyway) and list that in a spoiler below the VC. Such as:

Votecount 1.05(3) Ingrid - Alice, Flora, Bob (L-2)
(3) Alice - Carl, Dan, Harold (L-2)
(1) Grace - Evan
(1) Evan - Grace

(1) Not Voting - Flora, Harold, Ingrid

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

Deadline etc etc.

Spoiler: changes since previous votecount
34: Flora votes Ingrid (was NV).
35: Bob votes Ingrid (was voting Alice).
46: Harold votes Alice (was NV).


Also, I think vote numbers at the start of each line, and #-to-lynch counts only as necessary at the end (L-2 or lower) also maintains VC efficiency and ease of use.

I also like colors but am too lazy without a template pre-made.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:53 am

Post by callforjudgement »

My current style is an unadorned, unspoilered player list (that's copy-pasted from the Queue and used to show replacements and prods but otherwise never changed), followed by spoilered alive and dead lists that list only the current player in each slot, and their flip in the case of dead players. I think this has enough information to keep Toomai happy, and is imperfect for zoraster only because the alive list doesn't have a count of players?

I'm also starting to put links to the start of each day in the first post, as those are helpful. (Many mods put in links to the start of night phases too, but I've always found those more confusing than useful as they're right next to the daystart posts.)
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:21 am

Post by zoraster »

I mean that's fine. At least then when I do the census I don't accidentally count the wrong number.
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:34 am

Post by Faraday »

In post 51, Firebringer wrote:I hate that crossed out grey thing of showing where the votes change.
If you want to see how the votes changed, just look at the previous VC.

Its so obnoxious seeing it.
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:23 am

Post by hitogoroshi »

I like my mod posts to have a record of every vote cast. Obviously, for the audience of "a player in an active game reading posts as they come" you don't particularly need ghosts, but it's very nice when you want to look back for some reason.

I do agree that's stupid to do ghosts if you just ghost where they were last VCs, and don't leave a record of intermediate votes. Like if A is voting X in a VC, then switches to Y, then Z, then there's another VC, just having a ghost on X and a vote on Z is the worst of both worlds. But correctly logging the ghosts on both X and Y means that ISOing the mod lets you see every vote that was ever cast, without having to check every post in the game. Neat!
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:31 am

Post by Plotinus »

Yeah, that's why I do them. I usually have a votecount on over 90% of the pages and still sometimes a person will change their vote three times between vote counts. it's useful to have it recorded.
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:48 pm

Post by pieguyn »

am I the only one who, if I find it necessary, will manually compose votecounts in games I play when I find the mod's votecounts insufficient for VCA?

I try to make my votecounts frequent enough such that no major shifts in votes are missed, but I only do wagons + the people voting them, with no extra information. I operate under the assumption most players who actually know how to do VCA correctly are more than capable of finding all of the information they need themselves anyway.

EDIT: another point about VCs is that if there are voting shenanigans in the game, it is inelegant to list the wagons in descending order, since there may be scenarios where a wagon is hammered that is not the largest wagon. the one game I ran where there were weird situations like that in play I listed wagons in the order they received votes, and it was still compact enough such that all the relevant information was easy to parse at a glance.
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:55 am

Post by callforjudgement »

One issue with doing that is that making votecounts gets you widely scumread. (I know this one from experience; I was doing unofficial votecounts as a favour to the mod. I got scumread for it even though I stated in the Queue, before I got my role PM, that I was going to do it.)

Re: voting shenaningans, can't you just list wagons in the order of the number of votes on them (rather than the number of players on them)? That way, if a wagon gets hammered, that'll automatically bring it to the top of the VC.
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:56 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 62, pieguyn wrote:am I the only one who, if I find it necessary, will manually compose votecounts in games I play when I find the mod's votecounts insufficient for VCA?
I used to, which is one reason my votecounts are formatted the way they are: they're formatted as to include every piece of information
I
would want as a player, and I figure that if it includes everything *I* could possibly want, it generally includes everything anyone else could want, too!
EDIT: another point about VCs is that if there are voting shenanigans in the game, it is inelegant to list the wagons in descending order, since there may be scenarios where a wagon is hammered that is not the largest wagon. the one game I ran where there were weird situations like that in play I listed wagons in the order they received votes, and it was still compact enough such that all the relevant information was easy to parse at a glance.
Simple solution:
Don't run a game with voting shenanigans. :P
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:39 am

Post by Plotinus »

In post 64, mastin2 wrote:Don't run a game with voting shenanigans.
It's hard enough getting the numbers right even without voting shenanigans. Adding those in is just asking for trouble.
I do this all the time wrote:Not voting (3): Alice, Bob
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:08 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I haven't had a game with voting shenanigans, but if I did, I'd probably make them obvious on the votecount:

Plotinus
(4): mastin2, callforjudgement, pieguyn,
???


Presumably there's a doublevoter or secret voter involved here, but there's no doubt that at least the votes that show on the votecount have been added up correctly.
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:43 am

Post by Ircher »

In post 64, mastin2 wrote:
In post 62, pieguyn wrote:am I the only one who, if I find it necessary, will manually compose votecounts in games I play when I find the mod's votecounts insufficient for VCA?
I used to, which is one reason my votecounts are formatted the way they are: they're formatted as to include every piece of information
I
would want as a player, and I figure that if it includes everything *I* could possibly want, it generally includes everything anyone else could want, too!
EDIT: another point about VCs is that if there are voting shenanigans in the game, it is inelegant to list the wagons in descending order, since there may be scenarios where a wagon is hammered that is not the largest wagon. the one game I ran where there were weird situations like that in play I listed wagons in the order they received votes, and it was still compact enough such that all the relevant information was easy to parse at a glance.
Simple solution:
Don't run a game with voting shenanigans. :P
Great idea, I'll run a game with some major voting shenanigans!

(Actually, I'm a bit serious here --> I'm really considering modding such a game!!!)
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