Ethics of conceding

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Ethics of conceding

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:03 am

Post by Ümläüt »

Some time back I was in a game where it came out afterward that the last scum had wanted to concede (due to being the presumptive lynch the next day), but this was disallowed by the mod on the basis that it was playing against wincon.

This is certainly up to the moderator's discretion, and in this particular case one could argue that the last scum actually had a fighting chance since it was already lylo. But it got me thinking about whether flat-out conceding should be considered playing against wincon in the same way that, say, naming your teammates is. Maybe this is just from my experience with strategy board games, where conceding is considered preferable to playing out a lost game and far preferable to playing without actually trying to win.

Anyway, I was thinking about this again recently. Here are two hypothetical cases.

Case 1:
In a two-mafioso game, town lynches one scum on day 1 and the second is under suspicion. In this case, I would certainly not concede as scum (though I can see why someone would) and I would say it's reasonable for the moderator to disallow it.

Case 2:
In an open game, a confirmed town player comes up with an auto-win strategy and lays out an irrefutable case that it is an auto-win strategy. A supermajority of players agree to adopt it. In this case I'd say that the Mafia should be allowed to concede rather than play out a lost game.

What do others think?
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:02 am

Post by Majiffy »

The only time you should concede is if it's an autolose scenario
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:42 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:13 am

Post by McMenno »

murder is the only solution
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:56 pm

Post by GuyInFreezer »

Troll the thread instead.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:04 pm

Post by Accountant »

as cynical as this sounds, never underestimate the ability of players to fuck up a perfectly good autowin

also complain to the list mod that the mod of the game you're playing is a terrible mod whose setup design is so poor autowin strategies like follow the cop are possible
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:16 pm

Post by Kublai Khan »

In post 5, Accountant wrote:never underestimate the ability of players to fuck up a perfectly good autowin
This. This. This. This. This.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Post by zoraster »

Because of the way mafia works, purely on a numerical basis the game is rarely "over" absent power roles. Even 10-1 or something is definitely winnable for a scum.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:31 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

You could argue that if a win actually is automatic, the mod should just call the game there, rather than needing the scum to call it.

More of an issue is situations in which the win isn't mathematically automatic, but the only way in which it could fail would be if the town was somehow convinced that a flipped townie had lied. I'm not sure the mod can call the game there, and I can see why scum would want to concede. (Last time I saw scum in an unwinnable situation of this sort, they played on anyway. It was a Newbie game, so maybe they wanted to give the newbies more practice.)

I've also been in an unwinnable situation myself, as town (caught in a Kingmaker situation; by the time I discovered this, the setup meant that I couldn't be helped out by crosskills, so there was no point in playing for one). When I discovered it was probably unwinnable, I goaded the groupscum into claiming, and then helped out the independent scum on the (very low) chance that they had a town win condition (thus playing to the only possibility that would allow me to win). Conceding doesn't really make much sense in a three-faction game anyway.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:35 pm

Post by Accountant »

Flipped townies lie all the time
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:37 pm

Post by KuroiXHF »

I think you're talking about playing with grace - this has no place in a Mafia game.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:52 pm

Post by Accountant »

I actually think not conceding is more respectful, it shows you have the fighting spirit and respect for your opponent to try your best to claw a victory out of nothing
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:52 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

here's an example of a game that was basically an autolose scenario for scum, one scum conceded but I (the other scum) played it out anyway: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64429

Some people got mad at the game dragging out. I don't really have a strong opinion either way, just wanted to share a relevant experience.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:46 pm

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Haven't you people ever heard of a Blood Sacrifice? You've got to fight to the very bitter end, to inspire future generations
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:17 am

Post by Ümläüt »

In post 5, Accountant wrote:also complain to the list mod that the mod of the game you're playing is a terrible mod whose setup design is so poor autowin strategies like follow the cop are possible
Probably getting off my own topic, but this isn't quite fair (not to mention follow-the-cop isn't an autowin, mafia can doc-hunt). Just because a setup isn't autowin from the start doesn't mean it can't degenerate into autowin due to bad luck or bad play on the scum's part.

My second newbie game, we had a tracker and doctor, and lynched scum on Day 1, then they both claimed "I'm a PR" on Day 2, giving us three confirmed town out of seven players (since the tracker had an inno as well). Had they just claimed outright this would have been an auto-win for town with best play, and once they did claim outright on Day 3 it was an auto-win, though in fact we got lucky and lynched the scum that day. These things can happen in open setups even if they're carefully designed.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:21 am

Post by Accountant »

Fair enough. Didn't think of that.
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:23 pm

Post by BlackStar »

If it's already been confirmed to everyone in the game that you're scum and they know it then there's no point in lying anymore. There was one time where a gravedigger found out that I killed someone and told everyone but I managed to convince them that he was lying and I got that person lynched. After they flipped town, there was no way to talk myself out of getting lynched and in the end I admitted that was Mafia. I don't think it was playing against win con because there was no way out of that situation.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:47 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Correct play for caught scum is to troll. People aren't going to listen to anything you say, so you're job's to make them listen, rather than scumhunt like they should be. Spam up the thread. Make implausible roleclaims, then retract them and make different implausible roleclaims, then say the first claim was correct all along. Vote for random players, sometimes multiple times in the same posts. Quote people and edit the quote to make it look like they said something different, then make a case for that player as scum based on the edited quote.

You'll inevitably get lynched, but if you pull it off right the townies will lose their train of thought and find it harder to find your buddies.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:51 pm

Post by Majiffy »

In post 5, Accountant wrote:also complain to the list mod that the mod of the game you're playing is a terrible mod whose setup design is so poor autowin strategies like follow the cop are possible
Sometimes, even in the best balanced games, this could happen.

Say a confirmed living doc is alive, it's 5 way LYLO, cop is alive and scum never cc'ed either PR. Lynch one, investigate one, boom wham game.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:52 pm

Post by Majiffy »

In post 7, zoraster wrote:Even 10-1 or something is definitely winnable for a scum.
Only if I'm the scum
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:02 pm

Post by Equinox »

In post 17, callforjudgement wrote:You'll inevitably get lynched, but if you pull it off right the townies will lose their train of thought and find it harder to find your buddies.
If you pull it off right, you can win a Scummy.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:47 am

Post by kuribo »

Even when it looks hopeless, there's always some bullshit Hail Mary you can toss out as scum. Baffle them with bullshit, take refuge in audacity, make them doubt everything they were ever told by everyone they ever loved.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:29 am

Post by Accountant »

I did this once in a newbie game where I was the IC - got criticized for trolling instead of teaching newbies how to play properly... but I was ;_;
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You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:31 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I remember that, because I was the one doing the criticising.

The problem is that although trolling is good at showing people what you should be doing as caught scum in that situation, there's one uncaught scum and a whole load of townies who need to be told what
they
should be doing. ICing in a newbie game is kind-of complex for that reason.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:33 am

Post by Accountant »

Eh, the uncaught scum was the SE, and he did fine on his own. I did try to be objective in providing IC advice and theory, even when trolling.
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.
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