Ethics of conceding

[Firebringer]

ummm the people who are confirmed join the remaining blocks.
That would have been a decent way to balance it, if they didn't just all join the block.

[kuribo]

Oh yeah that's dumb because that makes it 12:1


If they didn't join the blocks, that could make for a fun little meta game where town sees scum trying to whittle down one of the blocks and then has to lynch scum from it as soon as possible to prevent a loss.

[Ümläüt]

Can you link this game, Firebringer? I'm curious whether this setup can be fixed by working along kuribo's lines.

If it works his way, then after one mislynch the town has to lynch scum but they have like a 1/3 chance of doing so by picking randomly. Conversely, the Mafia potentially has to deal with a large number of confirmed innocents but they don't actually have to kill them. Could be less swingy than the original version.

[LicketyQuickety]

Can you link this game, Firebringer? I'm curious whether this setup can be fixed by working along kuribo's lines.

If it works his way, then after one mislynch the town has to lynch scum but they have like a 1/3 chance of doing so by picking randomly. Conversely, the Mafia potentially has to deal with a large number of confirmed innocents but they don't actually have to kill them. Could be less swingy than the original version.

I believe fire is talking about a game off site that I hosted. I am trying to have someone who is very experienced take a look at it.

[Firebringer]

Yesh Lickety it was your game, I really don't think it was a terrible game, though thought it needed some definitely tweaks, it was very swingy. Kind of liked the concepts though

[LicketyQuickety]

Yesh Lickety it was your game, I really don't think it was a terrible game, though thought it needed some definitely tweaks, it was very swingy. Kind of liked the concepts though

you are aware Scum can win just as quickly, correct?

the correct way for Town to play is:

Pick a group and lynch from that group Day 1 which will prolly be a VT (this didn't happen Day 1, Day 1 was a No Lynch (which I even brought up with the mod saying maybe I should kill a random VT/Towny if that happens))
Pick a different group since it will be LyLo for the previous group

Then it gets a little ambiguous. NA are supposed to be done within groups. I would add a weak PR to Scum and do something different regarding Traitor in the game if I did it again.

[Firebringer]

I said scum could win the game just as quickly that's what I meant by "really swingy"

[LicketyQuickety]

I said scum could win the game just as quickly that's what I meant by "really swingy"

Oh, sorry, I miss stuff. TBH I just kinda skimmed the conversation. My bad.

[zMuffinMan]

the capcom game kise ran a few years back had a similar~ish concept but done better (5 groups of three, you pick one group of three to lynch from each day phase, scum needed to control the majority of the groups)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=19680

i don't remember the finer details of the game but it reminded me of that

pity tigers ate it

[callforjudgement]

Vi had a vaguely similar setup called Rarefaction, although the design of the original game critically depended on the players not knowing how it worked (because otherwise scum would have no reason to drop associative tells). There's an Open version of it now which brings the mechanic in later in the game and plays more normally earlier on.

[LicketyQuickety]

the capcom game kise ran a few years back had a similar~ish concept but done better (5 groups of three, you pick one group of three to lynch from each day phase, scum needed to control the majority of the groups)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=19680

i don't remember the finer details of the game but it reminded me of that

pity tigers ate it

:/

Firebringer, who's game was better?

[LicketyQuickety]

Vi had a vaguely similar setup called Rarefaction, although the design of the original game critically depended on the players not knowing how it worked (because otherwise scum would have no reason to drop associative tells). There's an Open version of it now which brings the mechanic in later in the game and plays more normally earlier on.

I would very much like to look at it. I'll try and do a search.

[callforjudgement]

Here's a run of the Open version: Micro 89

I seem to remember that the original was also a Micro, in which case it must have a very low number (less than 89). That might make it easier to find.

[Infinity 324]

I was in a recent run of the open version

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=67078

[Ether]

The problem with conceding is that it's not just your win condition. The dead mafia were working for it too. If they agree that the situation is unwinnable, then you should be allowed to concede. (This does go beyond just numerical autowins.)

So I guess I'd do it so that the last surviving scum can ask in private, and the mod can relay that request to the dead scum.

[GreyICE]

Lets see, um... genuine give up situations.

There was a limited kill game where due to a certain sequence of lynches and kills there was 2 living confirmed town players, 1 living scum player and no scum-controlled kills remaining. That's game. We could have lynched non-confirmed with a roulette wheel.

After we lynched the Serial Killer day 1 in the quack mafia game there was a sequence of night actions that had about a 90%+ chance of town win by random.org (we didn't exactly calculate it, but it was mid 90s for certain). The mafia gamely played it out, but were all dead by day 3.

That old superhero mafia game where one of the scumteams had an unlimited governor that could cancel any lynch except their own was pretty bad. Town might not have auto lost, but I certainly don't think we could have won without black magic. Having a lynch is a pretty solid town power.

But yeah, unless the volume of confirmed town has become too high the game could still somehow be won from most states.

[Vi]

Vi had a vaguely similar setup called Rarefaction, although the design of the original game critically depended on the players not knowing how it worked (because otherwise scum would have no reason to drop associative tells). There's an Open version of it now which brings the mechanic in later in the game and plays more normally earlier on.

He~y, I ran a second one! It even had the puppies removed so stuffy people would take it seriously!

...but yes, Equinox also ran this.
I've been meaning to ask how she thought it worked out, because I felt after the second game that the setup was scum-sided (Town lynching correctly in LyLo twice even with an I.Child in one of them?? liekwoa).

[Ümläüt]

The problem with conceding is that it's not just your win condition. The dead mafia were working for it too. If they agree that the situation is unwinnable, then you should be allowed to concede. (This does go beyond just numerical autowins.)

So I guess I'd do it so that the last surviving scum can ask in private, and the mod can relay that request to the dead scum.

I agree with this the most, actually. Funny thing is I've never heard of a mod actually doing this, maybe I just haven't played enough games yet?

[callforjudgement]

He~y, I ran a second one!

I know. (I was in that game!) It's the Open version I was talking about.

Back on topic, we had a scum concession recently in Micro 632. The setup was very townsided – we were following a breaking strategy – and we had scum in a slot in the strategy that guaranteed a town win if the player in question was scum. The scum was thus forced to deviate from the strategy overnight in a way that was obvious to everyone, and decided that there was not much point in continuing as every strategy suggested from that point onwards was designed to autowin if the player in question was scum.

It might theoretically have been winnable, but the scum in question had an implausibly uphill battle after being forced into doing something that no townie should ever do, and not being able to explain it away.

[Something_Smart]

not that I didn't try

concession was the best idea in that scenario, especially since the plan that they were formulating actually included not lynching me but making sure that if I was scum I would never be able to win, and it's just rude to make them play it out.

[Ümläüt]

it's just rude to make them play it out

This. This is the essential criterion for when conceding is a good idea.

[Accountant]

Maybe town woulda fucked it up(the strat) if you kept going

[Something_Smart]

Not a chance, because they had this guy.

Also, it was really straightforward; just a matter of sending the designated combination of "A" and "B" to the mod.

[Accountant]

What if someone in the town sent C

[McMenno]

there is no C